Perfect yukkuris...I'm not exactly in 100% support of that. Yukkuris need to be more representative of the imperfections in humanity and not this perfect bullshit.
If yukkuris are perfect, that means perfection is an imperfection. But perfect cannot be imperfect but if it's a perfect yukkuri that means perfect must be imperfectly perfect and that meaTAKE IT EASY.
A lot of artists have a main character they work with, doesn't mean he wants to be in their place. By your "logic" all novels or creative works would have the authors projecting them into situations where they want to be, including but not limited to destruction of worlds and murder scenes.
And it looks like you missed the whole joke in the strip, so lolz@u.
Okay, maybe I wasn't using much tact in my previous comment, so let me elaborate a little.
I do realize that most stories have some small level self insertion. This is because the author has to use their own experiences and knowledge of the world to write something original. This is something I realize and respect that, and it wasn't what I was talking about in my admittedly insulting post.
Fanfiction, for me anyway, is a whole different ballgame. Like original fiction, a fanfiction is written based on the experiences and perception of the author. But, unlike it's original counterpart, fanfiction has the benefit of having a pre-designed setting and characters. There's no need to set up and create a world, because it's already there. Not only that, but fanfiction is already guaranteed to have at least a few readers who were fans of the source material. Since everything else for the story is already made, all the author has to do is write their own interpretation of the story. This is where the problems with self-inserts begin. With a few exceptions, original characters tend to be shoe-horned into a cannon world for no apparent reason. Some of the more glaring example will have said self-insert become the focus of the entire plot, which is understandably off putting to people who want to read about "X" series. Often times, the self insert is given more powers than the main cast, is more beautiful, has better morals, etc. Sure, there are cases where original characters are well written in, and don't get in the way of the main cast (At times, they can even enhance the story); but more often than not, they are used by authors to give themselves a verbal blowjob. This has given OCs and Self-insets a bad name in many circle, and is often advised that one avoids them. Now, take a look at the Yu-cat character. She's very pretty, is shown in a morally good light, and appeals to the authors likes. Her pet is a Yuka-type...which is often shown to be completely perfect in comparison to other Yukkuris. And what does she do to those less than perfect Yukkuri? She kills them, of course! To the cheers to her fanbase and author. Wish fulfillment, much? Then, when reading through Yu-cat's comic, she and her awesome and adorable partner Yuka serve hot justice to those bad Reimu and Marisa types for the high crime of being in her comic. And on top of all that, she cat ears. CAST EARS! If that doesn't set off your "BAD SELF-INSERT" alarm, I don't know what does.
While I don't disagree with most of what you've said, your argument on fanfics still comes down to two major assumptions: one is an original works author has nothing to work off, and that fanfic authors have no need to setup and create a world and thus create bad self-inserts. I'd rather not get into a debate over this assumption, because its rather silly to compare yukkuri fanfics with real fiction works. If you really want to talk about it you can post a note on the yukkuri fanfics google group and I'll respond after I'm done with finals tomorrow. :P
When you're creating an original piece, whether it be a self-insert in a yukkuri SS or a protagonist in a mystery novel, chances are you will be creating a character you enjoy working with... (obviously far more so in an original work), so of course your mascot will cater to your likes, and prehaps even be "fanservicey" in the cases of fanfics. However, Yu-cat is a fairly soul-less character outside of her hatred for Reimu/Marisa and yukkuri abuse, so I'm not even sure where you got the whole "bad self-insert" alarm from. (Besides the whole fox/catgirl thing?) Considering almost every single anon/mister that so many SS and comics are based off molds exactly yu-cat, I'd say yu-cat is more generic than anything else. Not to mention the story doesn't usually center around her, it centers around her yukkuris (in particular her yuka). Overall, yu-cat focuses on 2 things in particular. One is he hates Reimu and Marisa types, and the other is he likes the ones you see listed here. He draws based on his preferences, so how is this any different from the rest of the artists like M1, Ammo, Rorinko, Makako and all the other yukkuri artists?
If I were to draw a [catgirl/schoolgirl/your favorite fetish] abusing yukkuris, would that make my works a "bad self-insert"? What if I drew a cho-aniki level character doing the same? Still bad insert? So you can see, your "BAD SELF-INSERT" alarm is completely subjective.
> one is an original works author has nothing to work off
I never assumed that, unless you read "Perceptions and experiences" as "out of thin air".
> and that fanfic authors have no need to setup and create a world and thus create bad self-inserts
I never stated that as an absolute. I only said it happens, and it's so often badly done that they have a generally bad reputation. The author can flesh the world they are borrowing out more, but for the most part, it's there already.
> Yu-cat is a fairly soul-less character outside of her hatred for Reimu/Marisa and yukkuri abuse, so I'm not even sure where you got the whole "bad self-insert" alarm from
For the record, the "BAD SELF INSERT" alarm came from the character being named Yu-cat, and the artist being named Yu-cat. Like the user "This" posted. That's often the first indicator of a Mary sue in most fanfiction I've read. Maybe I used a term that was too broad. Would you rather I call her a Mary-Sue? Badly done plot device? Because she fits the criteria for both. By your own admission, she's shallow and generic. But unlike individual anons, she's shows up multiple stories and artwork, her character is drawn to get more attention from the audience, there's really no other point to her existence than to get more attention. The fact that her pets of choice are popular because they're "good" yukkuri (And are considered by some Yukkuri-sue for their enraging amount of perfection) only make Yu-cat's character more rage worthy. If someone tried this in any other fan circle, they would be roasted for it, with few exception. Fuck, if you went to a Touhou fanfiction board, and wrote a story about "The great Nii-chan and his Youkai imoutos", you'd get flamed from here to kingdom come.
Also, before it's brought up, I wouldn't like this type of character even if she was defender of all Yukkrui kind. I never liked this sort of character in Yukkuri comics for reasons I stated above, not because she tortures Yukkuri (Which at this point, is so common I really don't care).
> Not to mention you still missed the joke.
Maybe it's not so much I "missed it" as it is "It's not funny".
> I never assumed that, unless you read "Perceptions and experiences" as "out of thin air".
It's badly worded. I meant that an original works author has to create a whole world from scratch using only his/her "perceptions and experiences", while fanfic authors have a pre-built world to work on. Most authors use some sort of basis to build their "world" on outside of "perceptions and experiences".
>For the record, the "BAD SELF INSERT" alarm came from the character being named Yu-cat, and the artist being named Yu-cat.
See, thats where your problem is. The author NEVER called his character yu-cat. People here started calling his mascot yu-cat because of a lack of name after he became a regular poster, taking on after his posting name on freeyy. So your assumption that this is even an insert at all is flawed. Not to mention people on freeyy call his mascot cat-princess, not yu-cat.
>there's really no other point to her existence than to get more attention
Yu-cat (the author) has stories around the character now known here as "yu-cat" and "her" yukkuri, so wouldn't it make sense that she is in it? If he was drawing something that was completely different and just threw in the catgirl for "attention from the audience", then I'd agree more with bad-insert comment. Some comic artists use some sort of signature character or some recurring theme for their short works, so I don't see why you have such a big problem with this particular one. Why not RAGEEEE about Rorinko's AQN, Tama's onee-nii san, or the trap-girl? (maybe hentai-man to a certain degree?) Yu-cat's just a running mascot since the today's yukkuri series, so I hardly think that having a running mascot that your story is based around is the same as your ridiculous "The great Nii-chan and his Youkai imoutos" example.
>>Also, before it's brought up, I wouldn't like this type of character even if she was defender of all Yukkrui kind
So the whole point is that your problem with the yu-cat (character) isn't because she's mary-sue or a bad-insert, but its because you hate the character design. I'm not sure if it even matters to you if she's mary-sue or not. Either you're taking the whole yukkuri thing too seriously and RAGEing for absolutely no reason, or you're looking for a plot device where there isn't any.
>>Maybe it's not so much I "missed it" as it is "It's not funny". Of course the joke's not funny when you're RAGGGEEEing. Maybe you should take it easy.
>Wait, you took my comment on a fan-made comic strip...and applied it to actual original fiction? >Hahaha oh wow. Wait, did you just discount all fan-made material as worthless (or at least sub-par)? What are you doing here then?
BTW, where can I find the glorified "Original Fiction" about the yukkuri? I'd like to see it.
>For the record, the "BAD SELF INSERT" alarm There's a fundamental flaw in this. Since self inserts usually turn out bad, the warning is sent to _writers_ to avoid using them, unless they know they can pull it off. It's not sent to readers to automatically condemn every character that bears traces of self insert. If you read it that way, you're doing it wrong.
While Yu-cat does have some characteristics of a bad Mary-Sue, she fails to have the most important feature: she's liked by readers other than her author.
And what's so bad about "The great Nii-chan and his Youkai imoutos"? I never watched Tenchi Muyo, but I hear it's pretty good and it fits the basic concept...
Oh shi-! More responses? Awesome, let's go dow the line!
> Most authors use some sort of basis to build their "world" on outside of "perceptions and experiences".
There is a difference between an author being inspired by something, and an author using someone else's setting out right.
> The author NEVER called his character yu-cat. People here started calling his mascot yu-cat because of a lack of name > Not to mention people on freeyy call his mascot cat-princess, not yu-cat.
I'll concede on that, then. Point goes to you.
> "yu-cat" and "her" yukkuri > "The great Nii-chan and his Youkai imoutos"
Not similar in concept at all. And how do you know that "Nii-chan" won't become a running mascot who takes care of all the loli-youkai imoutos? If this place has done anything, it's proven that people will accept anything as long as it appeals to their niche (Though I'm mostly reffering to all the cruddy looking artwork I see on here).
> Why not RAGEEEE about Rorinko's AQN, Tama's onee-nii san, or the trap-girl?
I have commented on the trap-dude. Same way I did here, infact. I just said I didn't like them or how they were characterised; but judging by the response I got, voiceing an unpopular opinion is a great slight and should be treated as herasy. Alright, it's nothing that extreme, but it is funny how almost eveything I say turns into an argument (Even when I don't mean it to be).Oh well, it's pretty fun anyway, so I really don't mind.
> So the whole point is that your problem with the yu-cat (character) isn't because she's mary-sue or a bad-insert, but its because you hate the character design.
...What? How di...you rea...What?
What kind of thought leap is that? No really, How do you come to the conclusion that what I don't like about her is her character design...when I say out right that what I didn't like about her (And many other Yukkuri OCs) was her shallow nature, deus ex/plot device-like role, and the fact that her pets are "lol perfect"? Not to mention that I said if someone were to make a family-friendly "mascot"...I still woudn't like them because I generally think original "mascot" characters are a nad idea. If you're talking about the cat ear comment, that was a joke. A bad one, admittedly, but still a joke.
> Of course the joke's not funny when you're RAGGGEEEing.
Is it not possible that I just don't find the joke funny? This kinda reminds me when someone gave me the same line when I said VG cats isn't funny.
> Wait, did you just discount all fan-made material as worthless
No, i'm not discounting fan-made material as worthless, nor was I really implying it. Where did you get that from?
> While Yu-cat does have some characteristics of a bad Mary-Sue, she fails to have the most important feature: she's liked by readers other than her author.
I guess you're going to tell me that Yorihime isn't a sue because a few people that aren't ZUN and Aki Eda like her. Anything, no matter how bad they may be considered, will have some kind of following. For example, I like Milestone shmups, which are often considered poor and aren't that popular.
> And what's so bad about "The great Nii-chan and his Youkai imoutos"? I never watched Tenchi Muyo, but I hear it's pretty good and it fits the basic concept...
If you can show me a good example, then let me know. I'm willing to give it a chance.
>No, i'm not discounting fan-made material as worthless, nor was I really implying it. Where did you get that from? From your "hahaha oh wow". I thought you meant to say that you think "fan made material" is so below "original fiction" that the mere thought of comparing the two is silly. What was it about then?
>Yorihime isn't a sue because a few people Okay, maybe I should have said "most", because given a large fan-base you're bound to find "some". Take two: most people seem to like Yu-cat.
Don't care about self insertion, don't care about fan made material, and i don't even care even if it's faggotry
1. Who is here that not even once ever fantasizing to be in some "actual original fiction"
2. as EasyModo say, i also get the message that you think of "fan made" so lowly below the so called "actual original fiction" so rather than debate about it now i'd like to ask you a really fine line between "fan made"(let alone the "comic strip" part here) and the so called "actual original fiction". All author got inspiration from everything around them, so we can say that the so called "actual original fiction" is also based on something, right? Now here's the thing... "fan made" is made by fans based on some other artist's work The so called "actual original fiction" is of course also based on something How do you know that author of the so called "actual original fiction" does not base his work from some other artist's work(and of course he's a fan)? Take example star wars, i'm pretty sure it's partly based on star trek, and who know if the author is a fan of star trek? so if he did a fan does that make star wars a "fan made"? Harry potter? troll, dragon, witch, magic... there's too much reference that those thing is not 100% the outhor's "original fiction" and i also pretty sure that J.K. is a fan of those thing(magic, witch, ect), she say so herself in some interview So now my question is... what is the fine line here that separate "fan made" and the so called "actual original story"? only just because this yukkuri comic strip here is let's say 90% based on yukkuri and 10% the originality of the author while the star wars here let's say 20% based on star trek and 80% the originality of the author does not mean there's a very fine line here sock, if you so insist on separate those two let's amuse me with you declare here to me what is the fine line between those two
3. what are you? a tough guy that is 100% not faggotry? if so what are you doing here? just by being here, created the id here, looking at this picture, and commented on several of it already makes you partly faggotry, (if you don't believe me try asking some dude for their opinion about a guy that took part in the community full of people that screaming, "kyaa that yuka so cute", "i want to switch place with that yuka" bla bla bla) CMIIW but it's strike me that you mock the author for being faggotry here sock assuming that i'm right, so now i'm asking you, on what ground(besides free speach :D) that you can accuse the author for faggotry while you yourself is faggotry too
>>while you yourself is faggotry too? I don't think you'd be half as amusing were you ever to fully grasp the english language. Also: >>on what ground that you can accuse the author for faggotry while you yourself is faggotry too >>i mean,how can you mock the author for being faggotry while you yourself is faggotry too? You pretty much just reposted the last sentence of your previous post, only 10 minutes later (pointlessly bumping this image because you drown out the first comment page with more inane "I don't understand" posts). Lastly, concerning what you mention of comments on image post #8003; I have no idea what you were trying to say. Something about asking god a favor, but no mention or description of what. I cannot from that comment discern in the least your intentions.
While this is on top, I just noticed a certain bit from poweryoga: "And it looks like you missed the whole joke in the strip" I don't see a joke in this particular strip, or most of yu-cat's 4koma. In this one, I just see p1. Yukkuri taking it easy. p2. Yukkuri teaching yukkuri. p3. Yu-cat taking it easy. p4. THE INFERIOR RACES MAY NOT TAKE IT EASY. If I'm catching any subtext beyond the simple presentation, it's not positive and it certainly isn't a laughing matter.
Though as much as i would like to read megapost containing long arguements (Sometimes), would it kill you guys to use the yukkuri fanfiction group to discuss?
@this well its simpel law of natur flan and remi are predators and ranked high in the food cain like lions and if they not hunt the taking a sunbath(taking it easy) just they show much more inteligence(exept remirays)
yuka for sure yuka-chen maybe is a usefull hard worker who plant plants and are abel life from themand even witout a human they give exesive food too flans so the flans portek them (yukkuri paradise story) showing improved intelect
while the most common yukkuris marisa reimu and alice mainly are mainly stealing food ,beg food or even demand food with sentenche like "futile human give strong yukkuri food or drob dead easy" while breaking things and make house invasions also just simply killing other yukkuris for low reasons like food or onwing declare that thier easy place(own kind but also usefull on like yu-cats/nekohimes first yuka)
why allow such being too take it easy ? too surive in natur you need either superior strenge letty flan remis suika yuugi? iku moku etc
be usefull yuka yuka-chen?
or have a good reason for other too not eat you china(spicy) cirno(tastless ice) utosho(radiation) and the new on filled with brofists
the only way for stealing being too sruive is mulibel in crazy numbers
@This in my second post 10 minutes later i just want to correct my mistype
you only mention "while you yourself is faggotry too?" while i fully type "accuse the author for faggotry while you yourself is faggotry too"
i just realize 10 minutes later that i used a wrong word that have a different meaning
by saying "accuse the author for faggotry while you yourself is faggotry too" i makes no point since i don't mind that faggot calling other people faggot"
so in the later post i'm trying to say that i mistype it by saying "i mean" and the more good way to say convey whay i'm trying to say is "how can you mock the author for being faggotry while you yourself is faggotry too?" which implied that what i don't like here is someone MOCKING other people as a faggot, especially since the one that do the mocking here is not so much better
and i do intentionally not saying what i wish in 8003 cmon, by seeing what above me commented can't you guess what i'm also wishing for? -_-
@That isn't yukkuri fanfict group is for posting yukkuri fanfict only?
Well what do ya know, decide to visit this site and I find a rather old argument getting bumped. Joy. Instead of replying to posts the way I did earlier in this comment section, I'll just give my overall opinion on what is being spoken about.
I don't like this comic. Though I will admit to have been using the terms "Mary Sue" and "self-insert" incorrectly (As I was told this was not the case for Yu-cat), the humanoid character is still shallow, generic, and lacking any special charm to make her interesting. I feel the same way about the "delicious trap", who's only sort of personality I've seen outside of killing Yukkuri is "lol I'm a boy! Look at my butt". Though I don't personally hate them, there is little doubt that cat girls are outrageously common and can be found in a multitude of places. So just scribbling a cat girl for a Yukkuri comic doesn't do anything for me. Since I don't find Yukkuri torture to be a desirable trait, Yu-cat's character has no real charm for me. I think Yu-cat is a badly done and shallow character, and when the only real defense of her I see is "A lot of people like her", it only makes me question the unnamed groups taste.
Now, for the comic itself....it's not funny. At all. This isn't me being too serious, because I can, and will, laugh at a joke that has a Yukkuri getting hurt. I don't like torture, but I do have a sense of humor. This strip's apparent joke simply fails to get any humor across. The build up is non existent, the punchline is stupidly weak (Not to mention, it had to be explained, making it automatically not funny). There's nothing funny about this strip; not because Reimu and Marisa are getting the short end of the stick, again, but because Yu-cat fails at the funny. It's not bad enough to be called anti-funny, but if the strips was attempting to make the reader laugh, it did a horrible job at it.
And while people are talking about my comment on fanfiction, let me go on the record and say, I do like fanfiction, quite a bit actually. I like seeing how people will expand on a given property (And hope that the majority of it won't be gay porn as done by 14 year old girls), and generally like reading extra material about my favorite character/world/etc. I don't find original characters to be a desirable trait in a fanfic. If there's a good reason they're there, I'll accept it. If their written to be likable, I'll accept it. Hell, I've read fics where the original character won me over in a heartbeat. But, when I think they're badly done as a character, and don't add anything to the story, I react to them like I did in this comment section.
(Old rant approaching, skip id you want) Wizzard2's explanation attempt only make me wonder how the hell a blob of food can break into a house without any way to open doors, climb walls, is too weak to damage a window without damaging itself, etc. The apparent Yukkuri "canon" doesn't give Reimu-types or Marisa-types any notable method of survival, only a myriad of weaknesses that make absolutely no sense. And when they DO get something that will help them survive, a Dues Ex Diablo appears to make said method null and void. So naturally, rarer Yukkuri that don't get drawn often and have magical powers will be considered better than Reimu and Marisa, because the freaking universe isn't out to get them. If anything, that's my real complaint about the yukkuri scene. It's old, and I've spoken about it before, but it's something I see in so many comics, that I can't help but bring it up.
>>isn't yukkuri fanfict group is for posting yukkuri fanfict only?
Well it does have a discussion area, I mean, you guys are still pretty much arguing with Yu-cat's comic (Also fanfic) as the main theme right? If not, one could always create a discussion group anyway.
I'm pretty much the only one that's posting translations. The main goal is to translate the SS from the japanese sites, but discussions on anything is welcome as long as its civil. There's only a handful of people that post there anyways, and translations are on hold while I try to find a charger that's compatible with my dictionary. :s You only need a gmail account to post, so its not a big deal. In the future I hope to post up progress on the yukkuri game I've been putting off, but that's a big side project as of now.
@Sock >>Dues Ex Diablo I think you mean "Diabolus ex machina"
So now you claim you don't hate fan fiction, nor the so called "original characters", and you don't deny they can have value...
Had you presented this attitude from the start, saying that you don't like Yu-cat because the author's tastes don't coincide with yours, then the "argument" wouldn't be needed, because de gustibus non est disputandum.
Instead, you were using the terms "fan fiction" and "self insert" as insults, possibly trying to fool the reader by exploiting common trends (hatred of MarySues, proliferation of poorly written fanfics, and such), but turning your argument into a strawman in the process.
Perhaps, try to avoid such blatant demagoguery in the future, unless that was your purpose, in which case 3/10.
I think my biggest mistake here was assuming that being a member of a site dedicated to a fandom inside a fandom would imply that I like fan-made material. I didn't think it's too big of an assumption to make (especially considering that a lot of Yukkuri comics require you to make huge assumption in order to work in any fashion), but I was clearly wrong, as this topic shows.