Platinum badge discussion

mad_hatter said: (from forum #9997)
Baron, if you want to start a new thread about Platinum badges and candidates, I'd be interested to read your thoughts.

Here goes. Sorry if it's a bit muddled - there's a reason I'm not writing anything right now, and it's not laziness. =(

Platinum badge yukkuri are very uncommon in my stories, and most of them are bodied yukkuri, for the simple reason that most normal yukkuri don't have the intellect or longevity to learn everything required to pass the test. Dosuyukkuri do, but since it's normally illegal to bring a dosu into a populated area, let alone own one as a pet, they're even rarer still.

Platinum badge yukkuri are still considered the property and responsibility of their owners, but owning one involves a lot more commitment. Once registered as a platinum, the yukkuri may not be sold, forced to work without compensation or re-tested at a lower grade unless it fails retesting, among other things.

As far as the law is concerned, platinum badge yukkuri have limited rights to handle money, own property and defend themselves in legal matters. Harming a platinum is a serious matter; killing one can lead to murder charges. What happens if a platinum yukkuri is convicted of a crime is something of a legal grey area. Given their rarity, it doesn't happen very often.

Platinum badge yukkuri are exempt from "no yukkuri" restrictions by default. This includes places like stores and shopping malls that do not serve yukkuri, apartments that forbid pets, public transport and so on. They can still be denied entry or service specifically, but they or their owners have legal recourse to complain if they don't believe there's a legitimate reason for it.

They can also count as supervision for bronze or silver badge yukkuri in public areas - gold badge yukkuri do not. They can even own yukkuri themselves.

So, uh, what does everyone else think?

BaronMind said:

Platinum badge yukkuri are still considered the property and responsibility of their owners, but owning one involves a lot more commitment. Once registered as a platinum, the yukkuri may not be sold, forced to work without compensation or re-tested at a lower grade unless it fails retesting, among other things.

I know you qualified the post, but I wanted to ask about the contradictory premise of "the property and responsibility of the owner" and "may not be sold". Also, what about re-testing? Do platinum yus have to be regularly re-tested, or is that situational?

I pretty much agree with your outline. But beyond this, what about voting-even on a limited scale? I think that if a platinum or half-human is able to own property, it's reasonable to grant at least local voting privileges after passing a civics course. And along with these rights, does it imply other civic duty, like jury duty or limited military service? After all, if they have even some equity in society, it stands that they have societal responsibility.

mad hatter said:
I know you qualified the post, but I wanted to ask about the contradictory premise of "the property and responsibility of the owner" and "may not be sold".

I, uh... don't know either. Don't do hurt hurt. >_<

I spent five hours getting that post together, and I lost track of where I was going with it repeatedly. I think the first part was trying to emphasise that they're not considered capable of independence, and the second was some weird tangent prompted by pro-yukkuri people complaining about exploitation.

Basically, the owner has the final say on what a yukkuri can, can't and must do, as would be expected with any other yukkuri, but there are restrictions imposed to prevent, for instance, having a yukkuri work a paying job and then taking all their earnings. Stuff that wouldn't come up with other pets.

As for the not selling bit... I don't remember where that came from. Probably some 'slavery' argument, although I vaguely recall wanting to emphasise that owning a platinum badge yukkuri isn't a casual matter - you have to be willing to stick with it. It's less about the money and more about not dumping the yukkuri.

Also, what about re-testing? Do platinum yus have to be regularly re-tested, or is that situational?

All badges have to be re-tested once a year. Yukkuri can regress as fast as they can learn, so it's easy to have a yukkuri 'cram and forget' their way through a single test. I imagine it would be less of a problem at platinum level, but what kind of government doesn't like paperwork?

I pretty much agree with your outline. But beyond this, what about voting-even on a limited scale? I think that if a platinum or half-human is able to own property, it's reasonable to grant at least local voting privileges after passing a civics course.

I just can't imagine human society accepting yukkuri to that degree. Not on a government level, at least - I can see community groups and so forth listening to the opinions of platinum badge yukkuri members.

Half-humans can vote, and have all the same rights as normal humans by default. The badge system doesn't apply to them at all. That's the theory anyway; they're obviously going to be the target of racial discrimination of some sort.

And along with these rights, does it imply other civic duty, like jury duty or limited military service? After all, if they have even some equity in society, it stands that they have societal responsibility.

I've been over that several times, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. With rights come responsibility and all that, but on the other hand, if they don't have a voice in government it would be a bit much. They'd certainly be expected to contribute to society in some way, even if it is just keeping their owner's house in order.

I can't see them being taken seriously enough for military service, but jury duty isn't that far-fetched. Though I'm sure plenty of people would whine about it.

Well, when I say military service, it doesn't mean as combatants but rather support. And for platinum yus having voting rights, it might be limited to those that own real estate, since there is historical precedent. And no way would it extend beyond (say) a city election.

In a world with yus, there is a point at which society would have to accept marriage to the bodied ones. People will have sex (and children) with bodied yus either inside or out of marriage, and society is going to have to accept half-humans as equals or have a messy situation. And what better way to incentivize enhanced status than marriage? Selling the benefits of platinum status is probably the best way to stability and gives the yus a shared goal with their owner. And marriage would theoretically mean an investment in not just getting the yu to Platinum, but an emotional one, too. So, that would kinda eliminate slavery and maltreatment-besides, I'm sure there'd be shithead yus to exploit. And face it-in such a world, a lot of men would waifu a bodied yu.

That aside, that in no way means I equate a bodied yu (even platinum) with a human. We agree they are deserving of more rights and responsibilities after they and their owner made the investment in improvement.

mad hatter said:
And for platinum yus having voting rights, it might be limited to those that own real estate, since there is historical precedent.

I don't see many yukkuri owning real estate to begin with! Not to say there's anything stopping them, just that they couldn't afford it. Platinums would be expected to live in their owner's house, like most pets do, and those earning a living independantly of their owners would be the exception, not the norm. They can't gain the qualifications needed for high-paying jobs either, so they wouldn't have much of an income in any case.

In a world with yus, there is a point at which society would have to accept marriage to the bodied ones.

I think the main difference in our ideas is the time frame. The platinum badge was only supposed to have been introduced a few years before the start of Me and Yu - the only platinum yukkuri mentioned in the story so far became a pet before the platinum grade existed! People are still getting used to the idea that a yukkuri can be more than a novelty talking pet with attitude.

The other big difference seems to be rarity. Bodied yukkuri are supposed to be rare enough that most people have probably never seen one in the flesh. Platinum badges actually are rare - there's bodied yukkuri in nearly all of the dozens of stories I've come up with, but only 3 or 4 platinum yukkuri. And ironically enough only one of them has a body.

And face it-in such a world, a lot of men would waifu a bodied yu.

But how many bodied yus would husbando a human? =p

Seriously though, nearly all of the human-yukkuri relationships I've come up with are more like parent and child than anything else. Most of my inspiration came from harouki's stories after all.

That aside, that in no way means I equate a bodied yu (even platinum) with a human. We agree they are deserving of more rights and responsibilities after they and their owner made the investment in improvement.

On that note, what do you think of the opinions of people in-universe? We've got the PETY and YSN types, and I can see there being pro-abyuse or just anti-yukkuri groups with opposite agendas.

And anyone else want to add their two cents? Riku maybe? Don't be afraid of the uneasy wallposts, we don't bite!

Actually, I thought when you wrote "property" you meant real estate, too. But yeah, I still think platinum status would allow it. How would the few that own RE obtain it? More than likely, it's from community property/survivorship/inheritance (through marriage or kinship) or gift. It would still need to be held in legal trust. Mainly, these laws were to be a deterrent to bodied Platinum yu abuse and act as a "golden parachute" in the event an owner thinks they can simply abandon their obligations.

The timeframe and amount of bodied yus may not be in sync with yours, but I presume the Factory had a fast-track breeding program. And of course there is the exceptional cases of spontaneous mutation.

Actually, my concept of bodied yus is an alternate to the eventuality of robots. In this world, as people become more immersed in tech, there is a minor but significant backlash to it. Even with the best AI, a bodied yu is more relatable than robots. I know it's tongue-in-cheek about the husbando, but the yus were taught this is a possible outcome.

In this world inside my head, people really don't pay attention to regular yus. The intial shock and issues have come and passed. Most see regular yus like stray dogs-don't feed them, take them in at your own risk and only act to eliminate them when they become nuisances. At the same time, yus have come to learn to keep low profiles around humans. There are yu advocacy groups, but they are about as effective as SPCAs; that is, they rely upon donations, the prevailing sentiment of society and yu behavior to affect change. They are primarily normal yu in scope since bodied yus are far fewer and generally well cared for and tolerated. Of course, that goes back to the Factory being careful about controlling output.

Radical groups on both sides are a minority. The militant pro-yu factions are like terrorist groups in the Middle East-divided in goals and degree of violence. The anti-yu groups are mainly focused on the muddling of human genetics, as they know even platinum yus are incapable of replacing humans in most respects.

I also would like to see other ideas.

mad hatter said:
Actually, I thought when you wrote "property" you meant real estate, too. But yeah, I still think platinum status would allow it.

I'm bad at words. =|

I actually do have one story involving a bodied, platinum badge yukkuri owning real estate. Her owner had no living relatives and left everything he owned to her in his will, as he'd grown to think of her as the daughter he never had. I'd say more but it'd spoil the story if I'm ever able to write again.

The timeframe and amount of bodied yus may not be in sync with yours, but I presume the Factory had a fast-track breeding program.

In my stories, bodied yukkuri are rare precisely because they can't be bred - nobody knows what causes yukkuri to be born or become bodied. Even the offspring of two bodied yukkuri are still normal yukkuri.

One of my stories, set in the "future", included a way being found to cause bodied yukkuri to breed true, as part of a large-scale experiment. The end results weren't normal though - they were larger, stronger, smarter and, as one of the researchers soon found, capable of developing similar powers to dosuyukkuri.

Another one included a bodied yukkuri army being created by the use of a brainwashing device able to force every infant yukkuri it was implanted in to develop a body or die. Given that they could also brainwash regular yukkuri to reproduce even faster than normal, in massive numbers, the enormous attrition rate was irrelevant. The only downside was that it replaced the yukkuri's mind entirely, making them basically robots.

In this world inside my head, people really don't pay attention to regular yus. The intial shock and issues have come and passed. Most see regular yus like stray dogs-don't feed them, take them in at your own risk and only act to eliminate them when they become nuisances. At the same time, yus have come to learn to keep low profiles around humans.

That's about where mine is - stray yukkuri are one of those things nobody notices if they don't have to, and the smart ones know it. Pet yukkuri are just another choice, with their advocates and detractors.

There are yu advocacy groups, but they are about as effective as SPCAs; that is, they rely upon donations, the prevailing sentiment of society and yu behavior to affect change. They are primarily normal yu in scope since bodied yus are far fewer and generally well cared for and tolerated.

That's about what I thought too.

One idea I had was for a small group called the "Yukkuri Rights Initiative", that advocate giving yukkuri more legal recognition. Unlike most of the other groups, they were actually started by platinum badge yukkuri and their owners, and they're primarily focused on gradually changing public opinion, showing that yukkuri are capable of more than most people think, rather than clamouring for attention.

They're probably doomed to obscurity, but I like having little bits of 'color' in my stories.

I also thought there would be a sizable demographic of people opposed to bodied yukkuri entirely, purely due to bigotry. They see all yukkuri as simple animals and scoff at the idea of giving them even the limited rights of a platinum.

Radical groups on both sides are a minority. The militant pro-yu factions are like terrorist groups in the Middle East-divided in goals and degree of violence. The anti-yu groups are mainly focused on the muddling of human genetics, as they know even platinum yus are incapable of replacing humans in most respects.

I see most radicals on either side being limited to street violence. Nobody really cares about the muddling of human genetics since there are hardly any hybrids, but there are plenty of people who call them 'mutant freaks' or the like. No different to the racism that is unfortunately rife in my part of the world.

I did have a couple of stories involving 'genetically engineered' super-yukkuri trying to overthrow humanity, and another where the humans destroyed themselves with weaponized dosus and other yukkuri-based WMDs. The latter was mostly just an excuse to have a postnuclear "Mad Max" setting full of mutant yukkuri.

And go adventuring with a friendly Dosu Utsuho. Unyu〜♪

That's a compelling argument you have for the rarity of bodied yus. Although it never came up in my posts, I do believe mated bodied yus can have normal yu offspring, but it is as uncommon as hybrids. It's the power of their faith that allowed their mutation (although I definitely think "genetic engineering" is also possible) and what inspired them to move past their roots became ingrained in their being. They simply pass that vigor of will to offspring.

Speaking on matters of faith, I had an idea for a story some time back. Roughly, an old Reverend had in-depth conversations with his pet yu. The Reverend was impressed with the childlike perspective and faith that yus generally possess. And given the declining church attendance and these yu qualities, he begins to minister to yus and comes to the conclusion they are more worthy of God's love than the humans that rejected Him.

On matters of violence, I didn't envision it between opposing factions but more like some of the PETY stories of Factory jailbrakes and sabotage. The anti-yu groups are more likely to use legislation in my mind. The muddling of human genetics is more a result of declining population and the anti yu-rights faction doesn't want laws that foster the primacy of yus over humans. Other than that, they don't hold any enduring hatred of bodied yus.

mad_hatter said:
That's a compelling argument you have for the rarity of bodied yus. Although it never came up in my posts, I do believe mated bodied yus can have normal yu offspring, but it is as uncommon as hybrids. It's the power of their faith that allowed their mutation (although I definitely think "genetic engineering" is also possible) and what inspired them to move past their roots became ingrained in their being. They simply pass that vigor of will to offspring.

It's just how I like to tell my stories. If my yukkuri protagonist finds herself face-to-face with a bodied yukkuri, I want it to be a fairly big deal. Yukkuri stories get most of their drama from the yukkuri themselves being so limited, and giving them limbs feels like the cheap way out if it's not done in moderation.

If course, in human-centric stories it makes them more relatable (and adorable!) and opens up lots more options, so I tend to overpopulate those ones.

I just noticed I have a few stories with bodied yukkuri protagonists, too. It's an interesting perspective.

Speaking on matters of faith, I had an idea for a story some time back. Roughly, an old Reverend had in-depth conversations with his pet yu. The Reverend was impressed with the childlike perspective and faith that yus generally possess. And given the declining church attendance and these yu qualities, he begins to minister to yus and comes to the conclusion they are more worthy of God's love than the humans that rejected Him.

That... sounds like it could be all kind of hilarious, yet deep at the same time. Are you sure you're not interested in writing something? =)

On matters of violence, I didn't envision it between opposing factions but more like some of the PETY stories of Factory jailbrakes and sabotage. The anti-yu groups are more likely to use legislation in my mind.

I was thinking about platinum badge rights when I wrote that: people wanting to give bodied yukkuri more equality with humans, versus people who think they're animals that don't deserve a place in human society. Humans start fights over dermal melanin levels, for goodness sake - what are the ultra-conservatives going to think of a 'person' that literally has no brain?

Then there's the question of bodied yukkuri with abilities. How would people react to a bodied, platinum badge Satori? Or a Nue? Or even an Utsuho?

BaronMind said:
Then there's the question of bodied yukkuri with abilities. How would people react to a bodied, platinum badge Satori? Or a Nue? Or even an Utsuho?

Aren't Utsuhos illegal to own anyway because of their nuclear potential?

Whoops, missed that in an edit. I meant bodied Utsuhos in general, not as pets!

BaronMind said:

Then there's the question of bodied yukkuri with abilities. How would people react to a bodied, platinum badge Satori? Or a Nue? Or even an Utsuho?

I'm split on the idea that ANY yu possesses exceptional abilities of their namesake. Half of me think that is a part of their type essence, and all that's needed to tap into it is the "enlightenment" that comes with a body. The other half of me thinks they lack something material (like Utsuho) or innate (like Satori/Koishi). Right now, all I can comfortably reason is some of the traits of their namesake; Marisa-types have kleptomania, bodied Yuukas can play guitar, etc.

I guess it's because I can't fully buy into magic as a solution to everything. Thinking on Iku, I could only rationalize the electrical generation and discharge by them having a pith filling and accumulating a charge, like in my school science class demonstrations. For mindreaders, I haven't been able to rationalize more than a paranormal intuition like what people think dogs and cats have; perception of good and evil. The "real" Satori is much the same, only her intellect allows her to leverage the particular thought.

That said, I'm sure these ideas wouldn't be accepted by most of the fan base. And that's why I don't think I can write. Not that they're indefensible; hell, you have to suspend rationality to even read more than one page of fanfics or pools. But the very idea of yukkuri are magical constructs seems to give license to incredible abilities. And I can't completely accept that.

The way I see it, yukkuri don't make sense in the first place, so why worry? You've got a soccerball-size blob of dough with tiny bat wings flying around, who's going to bother over a little static electricity? Think in terms of how it affects the plot, not how it works. Is flying OP? Nope. In it goes!

In my (horribly crappy) original works, magic is best described as science backwards. In science you figure out the rules, then look for a way to get the result you want. In magic, you figure out the result you want - which isn't always easy, mind; be careful what you wish for - and then figure out a set of rules that will let you do it.

You just have to be careful you don't get more out than you put in, because reality will only put up with so much bullshit before it decides it's time to balance the books. Or to put it another way, the reader will only put up with so much bullshit before they put the book down and go looking for something better to read.

That's my approach to writing anyway. I guess it's not for everyone.

the bicentennial man, anyone?

BaronMind said:
The way I see it, yukkuri don't make sense in the first place, so why worry? You've got a soccerball-size blob of dough with tiny bat wings flying around, who's going to bother over a little static electricity? Think in terms of how it affects the plot, not how it works. Is flying OP? Nope. In it goes!

In my (horribly crappy) original works, magic is best described as science backwards. In science you figure out the rules, then look for a way to get the result you want. In magic, you figure out the result you want - which isn't always easy, mind; be careful what you wish for - and then figure out a set of rules that will let you do it.

You just have to be careful you don't get more out than you put in, because reality will only put up with so much bullshit before it decides it's time to balance the books. Or to put it another way, the reader will only put up with so much bullshit before they put the book down and go looking for something better to read.

That's my approach to writing anyway. I guess it's not for everyone.

Your advice is sound. You would be a great writer of fiction. Me; not even non-fiction but more like a writer of technical manuals. It's just mindset; I can't get past rationalizing the irrational even as I know works of fiction don't need to make sense but rather entertain.

mad_hatter said:
Your advice is sound. You would be a great writer of fiction....I can't get past rationalizing the irrational

And this on a site about living food that can talk. That aside, Cirno there HAS actually written alot of stuff over on the yukkuri fanfic group. He is quite good.

Merciless_Anony said:
the bicentennial man, anyone?

good movie was good.

A bunch of shorts and one-third of a full story counts as "a lot"? YFT really has taken the big easy...

Cloudrunner62 said:
And this on a site about living food that can talk. That aside, Cirno there HAS actually written alot of stuff over on the yukkuri fanfic group. He is quite good.

Oh, I've know that for some time. I used to visit YFT, but not very often. What I meant was he should try to take it beyond pastime.

Yunyaaaaa! Mister sick-sick let Cirno write more stories, now is fiiiiine!?