On family friendliness

Let's get to the point immediately: some pictures are not meant to have abuse comments posted underneath, but due to some small details, they are disqualified from the family_friendly tag.
I propose a new tag (currently unnamed) which behaves like family_friendly, but is more relaxed with some rules.
A new tag is used instead of modifying the already existing tag, because someone might actually want to search only for pictures that are really appropriate for a family, while this new tag also has some elements "for grown-ups".
The common point with the original tag will be that no abuse comments can be posted under it and that if a pool has abuse then the tag is not appliable.

This topic was opened to gather feedback, mostly from old-timers.
I'm going to ping a few of them and wait for opinions.
@poweryoga @BaronMind @TheodoricBlood @redtails @Hitosura @boom

Thanks.

I thought that non_violent was for single images which have no visible violence or abuse, and family_friendly was intended when a full pool was non_violent and without abuse. I suspect that there's just a lot of erroneous use of family_friendly due to the confusion with non_violent.

What to me it sounds like is that you want a new tag which is what family_friendly is supposed to be, but start from scratch. In my opinion it'd be less work (but still a lot of work) to manually curate the stuff currently tagged with family_friendly.

No, it's not that simple.
non_violent can be used on abuse works, while the new tag retains the exclusivity and commenting rules of family_friendly, neither of which non_violent has (for good reasons.)
You really can't rework family_friendly because it's intended to be strict. The wiki lists the "non abuse" situations in which the tag still doesn't apply.
The new tag is really for those one-shot illustrations where it's obviously family friendly, but because there's a koyukkuri taking a dump it's disqualified and you get people commenting with stuff like "kill wasa" or "gotta crush them all".
I understand that those people are here for the abuse, but not every picture is always related to abuse just because a tag is missing.

"non_violent" can be used in abyuse stories since that single page may have no violence in it.
"family_friendly" notes that all images associated with the pool will not suddenly turn violent/into abyuse.

The distinction was made because half of the images in an abyuse pool were noted as family_friendly right before it turned into abyuse.

It's a pretty solid line, if observed properly.

Edit: Only tag I've thought about is distinguishing something in-between non-violent and family_friendly -- something that doesn't have abyuse, but does sometimes portray violence. Perhaps no_abyuse?

How about the bullying tag? IIRC there was some talk in the comment section of Takumi's Today is Friday series (or was it boshiherondasu's goodbye message?) about how bullying ≠ abuse.

Mikato said:

How about the bullying tag? IIRC there was some talk in the comment section of Takumi's Today is Friday series (or was it boshiherondasu's goodbye message?) about how bullying ≠ abuse.

I don't think that covers some of what I'm talking about.

I mean stories where death or injury does occur, but not at the hands of stereotypical angry/sadist human. Environment, other yukkuri, or just part of the story.

Mikato said:

How about the bullying tag? IIRC there was some talk in the comment section of Takumi's Today is Friday series (or was it boshiherondasu's goodbye message?) about how bullying ≠ abuse.

It's not about abusing yukkuri.
It's about not abusing yukkuri.

Since there seems to be some confusion, let's use a practical example, even though I didn't want to.
This picture here: post #83229
It's obviously family friendly, but due to Reimu doing poo poo, the tag can't be used.
The new tag is for this kind of illustrations. I doubt there are any pools out there that would qualify, unlike family friendly itself, so let's ignore pools for now.

I find it funny that the two images I posted with no second thought whatsoever are catalysts for a new tag which may change the rating system.

There are actually some pools that fall into this category though, like this one: pool #2215.

Cosmos said:

I find it funny that the two images I posted with no second thought whatsoever are catalysts for a new tag which may change the rating system.

There are actually some pools that fall into this category though, like this one: pool #2215.

That one can go under a 'questionable' rating, but I would still give FF tag -- the intentions of either party are unknown, and just because a mohawk runs the shop doesn't mean he's selling to individuals for the purpose of abyuse.

Hitosura said:

That one can go under a 'questionable' rating, but I would still give FF tag -- the intentions of either party are unknown, and just because a mohawk runs the shop doesn't mean he's selling to individuals for the purpose of abyuse.

The problem here is this one picture of shitting kos. Shit, peeing and sex make a pic not family friendly, but in no way they make a pic "abuse comment friendly". I think I can see EasyV's reasoning here.

EasyV said:
The new tag is really for those one-shot illustrations where it's obviously family friendly, but because there's a koyukkuri taking a dump it's disqualified and you get people commenting with stuff like "kill wasa" or "gotta crush them all".
I understand that those people are here for the abuse, but not every picture is always related to abuse just because a tag is missing.

We all know who are you talking about. Regarding this, wouldn't it be easier to put some kind of limit on their comments? Like letting them comment 5 pictures a day?

Yuno said:

We all know who are you talking about. Regarding this, wouldn't it be easier to put some kind of limit on their comments? Like letting them comment 5 pictures a day?

It really isn't about a specific user or group of users. If you scan past uploads you'll see stuff like this happening all the time.
And limiting a specific user doesn't seem to be possible, at least from the admin's dashboard. It can probably be done at the code level, but that would affect everyone else and I don't want to do that.

Hitosura said:

That one can go under a 'questionable' rating, but I would still give FF tag -- the intentions of either party are unknown, and just because a mohawk runs the shop doesn't mean he's selling to individuals for the purpose of abyuse.

As Yuno said, that pool has two pictures of yukkuri doing poo poo. While it's normal for living beings to do that, and yukkuri's poo is bean paste instead of actual shit, just the fact of showing the act disqualify the whole pool for the family friendly tag.
We then get to the main point: can we make a pool like that family friendly-ish, so that it is not inundated with people explicitly asking for yukkuri abuse?

Off-topic: I'm not sure whether to be honored or scared that I'm now considered an "old-timer" and explicitly pinged about topics this heavy. I've always just been the village idiot, I don't have the brains for this kind of rock-and-a-hard-place question.

I hope poweryoga weighs in on this discussion. He did an excellent job of keeping this madhouse running for many years so he's almost certainly the most qualified to answer. I'm a natural troll with chronic depression. Take everything I have to say with a grain of salt the size of the moon.

On-topic: personally, I think spamming non-constructive comments of any kind should be discouraged. I don't want to log on and see three pages of dumb one-liners on either side of this argument. Yes, I get it, you're new and you've just discovered how cute/disgusting yukkuri are. We know. We heard you the first fifty times. And you're not the first, second or even hundredth person to do this. Please shut up, or at least learn how to use the "no bump" checkbox. Poo-poo goes in mister toilet, understand it easy.

As for people "explicitly asking for yukkuri abuse," all I can say is that I think trying to decide what is not abuse is probably a lost cause. I think it would be better to have a tag for what is present, like the family_friendly tag does now, and ban/discourage deliberate flamebait comments elsewhere. On either side. (Not that I've seen many FF people doing that lately, mind, but that's probably because I haven't seen many FF people period.)

Abuse and FF are just the extremes, after all; there's a whole big murky spectrum in between.

How about 'teenager-friendly' or 'adult-friendly'? The tag names make clear that the post is unsuitable for children, but the word 'friendly' intuitively connotes friendliness (and is antonymous with abuse).

"Friendly" doesn't work like that in english, though.

PG-13?

How about we slap a "no abuse comment" tag on the picture, and the uploader (or the "tagger") will explain why we should not comment about abuse? It can cover more than an "adult-friendly" tag, and we don't have to create a new tag for a rating system. Like a family-friendly picture, the not-so-family-but-definitely-friendly picture, the picture without context, the picture with a family-friendly illustration, but a story accompanies with it don't (like this one post #81762). Especially the last one, while Mister EasyV did mention that it's normal for a picture to turn out not to be family-friendly after being translated because not everyone knows the language, I think that if that story is family-friendly, it must be universally friendly in all kind of aspects, including the text together with it because I think that everyone, whether they're literate or not, should be able to enjoy the family-friendly pics.

This is just my two-cent; I hope it can help in some ways.

Cosmos said:

I think that if that story is family-friendly, it must be universally friendly in all kind of aspects, including the text together with it because I think that everyone, whether they're literate or not, should be able to enjoy the family-friendly pics.

Yeah lack of translations can make things more difficult when tagging family friendly.
The "no abuse comments" tag isn't too bad of a name, and if you put a well-defined set of rules in the wiki you don't even have to have uploaders explain why they used it.
I mean, if you put "use this tag if you are not sure if the text is family friendly" in the rules, then you cover even the case you linked to, and people can't comment about abuse until the tag is removed after a translation (either because it's 100% family friendly or because the text is about abuse.)

I guess I'm sort of missing what the overall goal is with this tag? Let's call it "family_friendlyish". Is it to make it easier to find for example, a series where the first 5 panels are "family_friendlyish" and then turns into abyuse at which poinot this tag goes away?

Or is it to make it easier to find pictures like post #83229, which obviously has no abyuse elements with the exception of yukkuris doing "vulgar" things like shitting or pissing? What if its just a shithead doing shithead things?

I think overall it's difficult for me to conceptualize what images would go into the tag. Like post #83229 would fit right in, but what about post #81346? to me that's not really "family_friendlyish" but it fits the definition if we are including pooping/shitting and etc as part of the new tag.

I think the difficult thing for me to quantify is that the tag itself is opinionated instead of descriptive, and conceptually the tag is open to interpretation. I'm sure we can come up with some definition (after all, we did it with family_friendly) but it's inherently difficult to classify "somewhat-family-friendly" for the above reasons stated.

It's the second, though rather than searching it's for moderation purpose (i.e. comments, though of course it's a real tag that can be used to search or to make less strict blacklists.)
The simplest case would be "family friendly but without the NSFW rule", but I'm intentionally keeping it more open (at least while we are discussing it) in case we have to take some special consideration for some particular picture.
The "shithead being a shithead" thing can probably (looking for feedback here) be solved by substituting the NSFW rule with the rule that anger_inducing-like pictures do not qualify.
Other than that, the new tag should really have a name that makes it clear it's not related to "family friendly" at all, to avoid confusion.

This whole thing was really born out the fact that some people (me included) don't really like to see an otherwise perfectly fine picture have comments related to killing yukkuri or something like that.
I understand that in the current year yukkuri are made for abuse, but there is still a sentiment (at least with some OYP users I talked to) to have more "no abuse" content (not limited to pictures) and the current family friendly tag just doesn't cut it to keep the other party away.
The pictures linked so far show this perfectly: if it weren't for the NSFW rule they would show yukkuri taking it easy and nothing else.

What about "parental_guidance"?