One Yukkuri Place

Nicehead Tag Discussion

Posted under General

We Seriously Need to Discuss it's properties since today I saw many pics tagged nicehead when they only have Yu's that as much could be considered average in the "good-bad" spectrum. Also a Wiki of it would be nice.

If I recall the previous conclusion about nicehead tag was that it has to be for a outstanding yukkuri that had proved it's good through self sacrifice, understanding or similar good aspects, but they have to be notorious and very positive. Still this doesn't mean that things like being "nice" to their families makes them nicehead by default, since scum yu's can also be nice to their peers while shits to everybody else. Basically a nicehead has to prove that niceness is for everything and even in the worse scenarios, and it has to do so with a outstanding good act or a bening speech.

Another thing we should define is if a nicehead tag should be determined per page or for the the whole work, like this case here:
First this Marisa is labelled nicehead because of this: post #32638
But then it stops being so after doing this: post #32673

In the example previously mentioned Marisa was tagged as nicehead because of it's "average" niceness in the beginning, yet as the story goes on we see her not being nicehead at all (not necessarily shithead of course.
And we know that usually "niceheads" don't do such things, even if broken, or at least the consesus seems to think like that. So It should be judged by the complete work's outcome and not single pages, but maybe someone disagrees and thinks that the nicehead of one page can stop being nicehead a few pages later.

We really need to define this, if not, nicehead will lose it's validity out of people tagging anything acting nice as a nicehead, without any strong proof of it's nicehead status.

Updated by yukiyuzen

JusticeItEasy said:
We Seriously Need to Discuss it's properties since today I saw many pics tagged nicehead when they only have Yu's that as much could be considered average in the "good-bad" spectrum. Also a Wiki of it would be nice.

If I recall the previous conclusion about nicehead tag was that it has to be for a outstanding yukkuri that had proved it's good through self sacrifice, understanding or similar good aspects, but they have to be notorious and very positive. Still this doesn't mean that things like being "nice" to their families makes them nicehead by default, since scum yu's can also be nice to their peers while shits to everybody else. Basically a nicehead has to prove that niceness is for everything and even in the worse scenarios, and it has to do so with a outstanding good act or a bening speech.

Another thing we should define is if a nicehead tag should be determined per page or for the the whole work, like this case here:
First this Marisa is labelled nicehead because of this: post #32638
But then it stops being so after doing this: post #32673

In the example previously mentioned Marisa was tagged as nicehead because of it's "average" niceness in the beginning, yet as the story goes on we see her not being nicehead at all (not necessarily shithead of course.
And we know that usually "niceheads" don't do such things, even if broken, or at least the consesus seems to think like that. So It should be judged by the complete work's outcome and not single pages, but maybe someone disagrees and thinks that the nicehead of one page can stop being nicehead a few pages later.

We really need to define this, if not, nicehead will lose it's validity out of people tagging anything acting nice as a nicehead, without any strong proof of it's nicehead status.

I think that nicehead can and should be a panel-by-panel tag:

  • The marisa in post #32638 is behaving in the precise opposite manner of the shithead/deibu archetype in that particular situation. The marisa is acting altruistically, showing neither indifference nor cowardice in relation to the survival of it's ko.
  • By post #32673, however the marisa has changed and commits a shithead/deibu act out of despair and rage. In this situation the marisa is NOT a nicehead.
  • I think that most would agree that the reimu in post #36779 is definitely a nicehead, showing a commendable level of altruism.

amicustribusyu said:
I think that nicehead can and should be a panel-by-panel tag:

  • The marisa in #32638 is behaving in the precise opposite manner of the shithead/deibu archetype in that particular situation. The marisa is acting altruistically, showing neither indifference nor cowardice in relation to the survival of it's ko.
  • By #32673, however the marisa has changed and commits a shithead/deibu act out of despair and rage. In this situation the marisa is NOT a nicehead.
  • I think that most would agree that the reimu in #36779 is definitely a nicehead, showing a commendable level of altruism.

Using "{ { #number } } " doesn't work, you need to use "post #number"

And If it's the same Marisa I used as a example, again, a nicehead can't change to bad, the same way a shithead can't change to good, if the suspected nicehead does a hideous act like raping innocent yu's or something, It's not a nicehead, only an average Yu that started nice. No ammount of suffering, desperation or rage will make a true nicehead change, since they are the anti thesis of shithead, who under the same circunstances won't change to good.

That's why it's mistaken to use nicehead based in page instead of whole works, because with that logic, every yukkuri would be nicehead, even though scum can be nice to their family, some average yu's can sacrifice for it's kids, etc. If 2 pages later the labelled "nicehead" suddenly does a non nicehead act like raping or mudering an innocent, it wasn't nicehead to begin with.

Skribulous said:
For reference: forum #575

Why are we still having this discussion, again?

Because for some reason there has been a lot of mistagging for nicehead, So I think we should discuss it further and come out with a wiki description for it with a definitive stance, aside of stablishing if it should be "page based" or "whole work based".

Extra Note: Just in case, I already changed those that were really not nicehead, and only where just being averagely nice.

JusticeItEasy said:
Another thing we should define is if a nicehead tag should be determined per page or for the the whole work, like this case here:
First this Marisa is labelled nicehead because of this: post #32638
But then it stops being so after doing this: post #32673

In the example previously mentioned Marisa was tagged as nicehead because of it's "average" niceness in the beginning, yet as the story goes on we see her not being nicehead at all (not necessarily shithead of course.
And we know that usually "niceheads" don't do such things, even if broken, or at least the consesus seems to think like that. So It should be judged by the complete work's outcome and not single pages, but maybe someone disagrees and thinks that the nicehead of one page can stop being nicehead a few pages later.

Just wanted to address this part.

If a picture is part of a series, tag based on the overall story, not individual pictures. We had this same discussion with the True Happiness story where people initially thought that the story was family friendly only to have it turn full abuse.

That said, role_reversal? FFS guys! Use the pools!

JusticeItEasy said:
Using "{ { #number } } " doesn't work, you need to use "post #number"

And If it's the same Marisa I used as a example, again, a nicehead can't change to bad, the same way a shithead can't change to good, if the suspected nicehead does a hideous act like raping innocent yu's or something, It's not a nicehead, only an average Yu that started nice. No ammount of suffering, desperation or rage will make a true nicehead change, since they are the anti thesis of shithead, who under the same circunstances won't change to good.

That's why it's mistaken to use nicehead based in page instead of whole works, because with that logic, every yukkuri would be nicehead, even though scum can be nice to their family, some average yu's can sacrifice for it's kids, etc. If 2 pages later the labelled "nicehead" suddenly does a non nicehead act like raping or mudering an innocent, it wasn't nicehead to begin with.

I see what you are saying. terms such as shithead/nicehead
are deterministic. They connote one mentality or another. Could there be a new tag, one that acknowledges individual acts of altruism (such as those in post #32638)/ "niceness" whilst not necessarily placing the subject yu in one category or another.

JusticeItEasy said:
Because for some reason there has been a lot of mistagging for nicehead,

No, not really. amicustribusyu has just been going insane making new tags and ignoring definitions and the pooling system. (carrying tag amicustribusyu? Really? Did we really need that?)

amicustribusyu said:
Carrying is a distinct verb category which is depicted fairly frequently. There are already tags for sleeping, eating, rolling, suii[ing], sex, etc.

Suii refers to the vehicle not the verb. Sex and sleeping are very specific and very obvious. Eating is needed to account for predator yukkuris eating other yukkuris since the food and cannibalism tags weren't applicable. The rolling tag was proposed but never actually discussed or accepted.

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