yeah unyu, if the shit wasn't enough to ruin any tear jerker factor, the idea that they are proactively ignoring the still living and suffering family member sure takes away even more tear jerker points.
Well considering how yukkuris stories are, it wasn't going to be a tear jerker anyway, since the author didn't focus on make the yukkuris sympathetic enough for that =V.
Actually the poo poo dance made me feel even less sympathetic about them.
Hmm on the other hand, maybe i found Father Marisa more Sympathetic, but alas it's chivalrious death doesn't necessary bring tears but a bit of admiration because it stuck with her family until the bitter end, no matter the big ass gash, and the pain.
Wait a minute, so she want the dad to wake up JUST to clean her. also, i've noticed that she's not crying because the father is dead but because she's still dirty. I was feeling really mad, seeing Anon killing this cute family, but now I just think that they deserve it and GO, ANON, TORTURE HER, KILL HER!
Err Nabs, i actually think she did the pooping and dirtying on purpose to generate a reaction on the father to wake up, you know typical pseudo dramatic intent of waking up the dead.
Looks more like one of those scenarios on TV where someone tries to motivate (in one way or another) an incapacitated person to get back up to their feet. I wouldn't say that she's a retard (or really deserving of the tag), but obviously it just isn't going to work here.
Well in normal circunstances it would be moving and all, but consider this, she did it in the stupid yukkuri way, "pooing" ? "getting dirty" ? "asking for clean clean" ?
There are many better ways for that to be done even in yukkuri standars and she picked one of the worse ones, dunno if it deserves the retard tag, but it does, at least, the dumbass one, out of ruining a dramatic moment with her poop.
There are still better ways for baby yukkuris to get their parent attention, like you know "you promised to teach us how to hunt?" (which Marisa did try but they whinned about it a few pages back) or "Reimu wants to rub rub with daddy ;_;"
Shitting to get the dead to somehow react is like if you smacked yourself hard and asked dead mom or dad to kiss the pain away and put you a bandaid as a method of "reviving through reaction", it's kinda kills the drama out of a stupid method to achieve the dramatic attemp.
So this lil one is a baby, this lil one is dumb, and this lil one pretty much picked the wrong way to get daddy to "wake up" ruining the tear jerker potential.
And then, with all agreements and disagreements we may have over that, the koyukkuri still has the classic retard look. Let's not get into the "cute", thing though. As much a reason why people love seeing them get tormented, as much as some hate it, so it's pointless to go into it.
"Tear-jerker" isn't the right term for this, though. Kiri isn't that type of artist. He's a straight up, happy yukkuri killing machine, and there's lots of us who love it that way.
It's weird, but it seems to be common in Kiri's works and some others. I think they're more to show smell, like stink-clouds or something like that. And amen, bepop.
Oh... Kinda weird if poopoo was hot enough to create steam, wouldn't want to get that on my hands, but if it is just the smell of expired beanpaste... who cares.
Where do you draw the line on "innocent" yukkuri abuse? Has this crossed it yet? How do you feel about people who draw the line before you, are they whiners? After you, are they psychopaths? Do you hate them?
I think people are misinterpreting my "she ruined the potential dramatic scene" with "this is justification to be smacked around".
I just said that, the notorious potential of dramatic tear jerker scene was ruined by her using the wrong method to get daddy to "wake up", which i think was the intention, not to make her look bad or anything, just a mixture of failed drama with typical yukkuri fail in the middle of their suffering.
No Justification for anything, no demonization, nothing, only a notorious failure in a dramatic situation and that's probably what it was meant to be, you know as part of their suffering and fail conga?
>>Where do you draw the line on "innocent" yukkuri abuse? What line? A yukkuri is a yukkuri. >>Has this crossed it yet? No. >>How do you feel about people who draw the line before you, are they whiners? Only if they, y'know, whine about it. >>After you, are they psychopaths? No, and we've been over this before. Liking the abuse of fictional creatures should not be compared in any way to real-life psychopathy. Anyone who makes that connection is, to say the least, unqualified to do so. >>Do you hate them? Only Hamatek/AIE, but that has nothing to do with him liking to see yukkuris suffer and everything to do with him being an asshole.
Phew, thanks Theodoric. Please don't ask about the whole innocent/cute/good reasoning and psychopathic behaviour, and where the line is drawn, etc., etc., etc.; it's been repeated ad nauseum. It's tiring that abusers are always the ones asked to justify or provide reasons and answers.
The only people I could see thinking of this as trolling are the die hard FF crowd, that think the only reason abuse exists and people share and discuss it is to antagonise them. For us abusers, there's plenty here that makes us happy. And please don't ask us why, or where we would draw the line, or what we would think of semi-related thing X.
I'll add some fuel to the fire that's been started though, by saying there's nothing too extreme that can be done to any yukkuri. The line is subjective, so I'd say the people that try to smack it down are the ones who are pretty inconsiderate of others tastes. Well, the only reason to do that in the first place is to make a complaint about how it has 'crossed the line' and is unacceptable. If we were as active as the people criticising the "innocent/happiness" crushing stories (which those people hate, so it's confusing as to why they give them so much attention) on happy yukkuri moe smiles stories (hypothetically- the only person like that is AIE), it wouldn't be pretty. It's a shame the consideration isn't quite mutual, though. And I still spent too much time thinking and answering about this.
I'm the only one that feels that the whole discussion of "crossing the line" is darn out of place?
I mean yeah we had one about how her pooping in a potential dramatic scene ruined it, and probably being the joke, but i think it's stretching it too far to go about "crossing lines" and "people questioning it" or "people shouldn't question it"
Kinda feels like people completely missing the point.
I'd like to ask people to stop responding to these sort of questions. Every few weeks we get someone that comes on just to invoke a "thoughtful debate" and it always comes back to the dead horse.
Rootbeer i think that wasn't the problem at all, in fact aside of acoolguy's silly CAPSLOCK CRUISE CONTROL answer, things were civil, it kinda started with the comment of nice_starship.
But seriously dunno why theodoric and tea felt like commenting, that comment was kinda out of place anyway, and clearly missing the point of what this comic and kiri works are usually about.
It sure ruined our debate of the tearjerker drama potential the scene would had if it wasn't because of the little one using the worse method to "wake up daddy", and probably that was the idea with this page, some sort of descontruct of dramatic tear jerking moment, all thanks to the yukkuri antics.
OK, here's a simple explanation of why I'm totally crazy about abuse in yukkuris:
Since childhood, I never liked overly cute things, such as some Pokemon: Cleffa and Igglybuff, my thought was: Man, if I had one of those before me, would kick to hell!
But there are differences, even for me.
Here is an example of a cute image, I particularly liked these:
The above images are legal, despite being FF, I love them because they do not appeal to exaggerated cuteness, they are balanced and pleasing to anyone.
Now comes the contrary, these are like, cute, they become annoying, practically change the way that some see:
Maybe Kiriraita thinks that but he probably won't agree with your backstory of breaking the rules and being a douchebag AIE.
that's why people don't like you in general, you are so overzealous of your hate of exagerately cute things that you bother other people and in the past you even broke the local golden rule out of it.
Nobody say you should like those exagerately cute things, hell i don't like many of the exagerately cute stuff either, but you need to calm down, stop making tantrums and be all uppity if people get int your case because of your transgressions.
I think at least we can at least all agree that we are lucky to have a talented enough artist in our community to be able to interpret his works in such varied ways.
Its easy to make a steaming poop. Just go poop outside on a cold day. It steams. As for the reason of shitting, its just a standard 'if I do something bad and stupid, dad will be mad and get up and kick my ass and not be dead' sort of flawed child-logic. Anon's system for taking happiness is somewhat flawed. The dead don't worry about happiness anymore. Better to have left them alive and used them against each other, then killed them once they were broken.
@MrGrey Maybe anon just likes to see them writhe in pain and to take their happiness himself? You don't really need to break up the family and make them fight each other or something to ruin their happiness, only to step in and being a mayor douchebag on their asses, and that without counting all the abusive ways that you can go along after stepping in.
Now about the shitting, i think at this point nobody denies that was the intention, but, considering all the options a koyukkuri would had for getting daddy's attention so they would get back from the death, she used the worse and most "drama ruiner" one ever, which i think is the joke, "make a tearjerker like scene pretty much not become tearjerker because of yukkuri fail".
I doubt anybody, would take a scene like this like something serious or dramatic if it weren't an abuse story and we saw this same scene in a story meant to make the yukkuris more sympathetic and less "You see this moeblobs? Time to being a douche and abuse them! >=D ". People would probalby see it as a complete failure and since this isn't a story of sympathy and seriousness i think that's what Kiri aimed for, the desconstruction of such scene because of the style of the story and the very actions of the yukkuris ruining it, regardless of their intentions.
A fresh perspective on yukkuri failings: Yes , the idea to poo-poo herself to get Daddys' attention is absurd and stupid. However , ridiculous stupidity must not necessarily destroy any potential for drama. That's because the ko can't help it. She's just a silly , helpless piece of beanpaste - born to get eaten alive by the first thing that comes along. That is the true existential horror of being a yukkuri - you are fucked even before you are born. They are weak , slow , dumb , they have no limbs , no special abilities. They have nothing going for them. So yes , it is totally pathetic ... and that's why it's tragic. P.S: Before anyone starts bitching about it , this is not supposed to be a call to "stop all yukkuri abuse". I merely want to give you my interpretation of things.
@Funk: I'm not talking just to you, but I'm sure you'll notice it. You are actually right. It's pathetic because yukkuris are basically pathetic being (not as an insult, but as a statement. As your post says, they live in a world where they have no means to survive. They are anti-Darwinian, if we want to keep using 'highly specific and scientific terms' like some like). This being pathetic, and yet striving to achieve something it's dramatic by itself. Actually I find koReimu's behaviour cute, somehow!
Yet someone depicts these choices as trollish, like in every story there has to be an incredibly long monologue or those horrible rethorical questions that appear every time someone doesn't know how to justify why something happened - like everything needs a justification.
It's just plain old abuse, I keep wondering why someone always have to find flaws in a story that doesn't even try to be serious. Being not serious it's not a flaw, it's a choice. You don't like the genre? We respect that. But all the times, the same comments and the same attitude to find flaws to explain us why these stories are inferior to your tastes. (not you Funk... not talking about you)
To quote Tea "If we were as active as the people criticising the "innocent/happiness" crushing stories it wouldn't be nice". I never go around telling people if something is bad or why, and I'm not the only one. Maybe some guys should copy us. I can understand and actually support if someone there are critiques regarding some aspects of a story. But every time Kiri or some hardcore abusers show up, it's always the same thing. Always.
Because seriously, we bash AIE because he is unpolite and goes around telling things that people don't like or feel simply unnecessary... but other guys do basically the same thing without insults.
@Ryoga: this is the last thing I'll tell my opinions regarding this hot topic, I understand your reasons. I hope the others will understand mine too.
@bebopfan You are missing completely my point by far, you are taking what would be an analysis of the scene, which is what i did, and act like if it were about "liking the situation or not".
I just realized that the scene resembles a bit of an archetypical tearjerker scene, yet, out of various factors, included the idiotic kind of innocence, made this whole comic page to look like a deconstruct of an average dramatic tearjerker story, which by itself is a funny joke, maybe not LOL worthy but deserves a chuckle of how bizzare and deconstruct the scene itself is.
@Anon Kun The situation of AIE goes beyond disagreements and him being a bit rude, he usually act's plainly antagonistic, and after a long story of antagonisimn, breaking rules, etc. people now plainly are wary and don't stand him.
We may argue, discuss, complain, etc. but nobody had ever being as antagonizing and as zealous as AIE, without being an outsider FF Troll.
First time i heard about such a thing Mr Grey, and man i had dealed with many kids in my life, yet usually their methods to get attention tend to be from shouting, crying, insulting, smacking, etc. But soiling themselves for attention is something i had never seen.
Besides the point wasn't about getting attention in "that way", aka attention whoring or anything, but in the melodramatic way of "waking up the dead with a strong emotional attention", that's the deal and why i think this page was meant as a deconstruct.
> you are taking what would be an analysis of the scene, > which is what i did, and act like if it were about > "liking the situation or not".
well, then to quote Tea like Anon kun did:
"If we were as active as the people criticising the "innocent/happiness" crushing stories it wouldn't be nice."
still, thanks for sharing your points, although they all look the same, at elast they are worth for showing people that how popular and unique kiriraitaa is in yukkuri scene.
> "waking up the dead with a strong emotional attention", > that's the deal and why i think this page was meant as a deconstruct.
Before I begin, I just want to say this isn't attempting to say that the pooing didn't 'ruin a potential tearjerker moment', its just an potential explanation for WHY the Reimu chose that particular method.
Looking back at the comic, and considering just how young that Reimu is, I think the Reimu used the 'poo' method simply because it's the only thing she has seen cause a major and immediate reaction from her parents. So, since the only thing she has experienced in her short life that caused such an immediate response was the 'poo-poo', she went with that method, despite how 'inappropriate' and 'moment ruining' it was.
tl;dr Because of her limited intelligence and life experience, she used the only method she KNEW would cause an immediate and major reaction from her parents. Doesn't mean it didn' ruin the 'moment' or anything though.
"Yet someone depicts these choices as trollish, like in every story there has to be an incredibly long monologue or those horrible rethorical questions that appear every time someone doesn't know how to justify why something happened - like everything needs a justification.
It's just plain old abuse, I keep wondering why someone always have to find flaws in a story that doesn't even try to be serious. Being not serious it's not a flaw, it's a choice.
You don't like the genre? We respect that.
But all the times, the same comments and the same attitude to find flaws to explain us why these stories are inferior to your tastes. (not you Funk... not talking about you) I never go around telling people if something is bad or why, and I'm not the only one. Maybe some guys should copy us. I can understand and actually support if someone there are critiques regarding some aspects of a story. But every time Kiri or some hardcore abusers show up, it's always the same thing. Always."
Truer words were never said. Anon-kun told me his story was criticised harshly because 'there's no JUSTICE' and the behaviour of the anon (I.E. he's not attacking shitheads, these are 'good' yukkuri, such an asshole), as opposed to actual valid criticisms such as of the story, characterisation and writing. Instead... criticism and attacks due to the type of abuse, and not quality of the content. I guess the fact that there's no violence in family friendly, and that a story is bad because hard working happy yukkuris do not get abused are now valid complaints as well. Yeah, we respect that people don't like that type of abuse, or genre. It's a shame others can't show some respect in turn. I imagine actual valid criticisms (the character's a bit flat, the mix of humour isn't that good...) about the quality of content are of course welcome, but it just turns into criticism and attacks over the type of content (the guy's an asshole, this isn't justice...), which really isn't valid at all. Amusing, considering the apparent attitude of finding whatever stories fit your preferences best and sticking to those...
"I can understand and actually support if someone there are critiques regarding some aspects of a story. But every time Kiri or some hardcore abusers show up, it's always the same thing. Always." Fits like a glove.
Tea, you are missing the point of the comments of that story by anon-kun, in fact, had you ever read them to begin with?
people were complaining more about anon kun making the abuser sound like a rabid delusional idiot, for real, like if it were some sort of anti abuse parody, since he made a whole deal of wanting to kill average yukkuris for the wrong reasons, not even out of loving their suffering or anything but labelling them as pests and such, when they weren't or trying to look for the slightlest justification like if they wouldn't fight to protect the owner's money and stuff.
I find it ironic you completley missed the point of comments worrying more about the flanderization of an abuser than being an average abuse story.
It didn't help that in a previous chapter Anon Kun introduced a random Yuuka, gave her a nice small backstory paragraph only to get her killed in a horrible way for no apparent reason, not even average abuse pleasure, but "hey it popped out of nowhere! KILL IT!" And it felt like the big lipped alligator of that chapter, so out of nowhere, so uncalled for and so narm.
In the end Anon Kun, un purpose or not, made a a damn notorious flanderization of an abusive anon, so flanderized that it felt like it was the cliched that the ultra zealosu anti abuse gang, see Abusive Anons like.
Well it looks like a heated discussion is going on here, so I'm going to, as I have traditionally done, contribute a tiny comment that likely does not pertain to the topic at hand, being discussed in comments spanning several lines, while I simply throw out a random one-liner.
Hmm, well that last bit sort of killed it. Might as well get to saying what I came to say:
That koreimu doesn't even qualify as shit. It shits in front of its dead (Father?), rolls in the shit, then complains about the shit, then continues to pester its corpse. I think that shit was its atom of a brain.
I don't know what you mean by "anti-abuse parody", and it seems you missed the point of what I said about distinguishing about what actually is useful criticism. Commenting about flanderization of the anon and being quite over the top (perhaps it's meant to be like that? It helps that his first story was quite like that) are quite reasonable criticisms, as opposed to labelling characters retards or delusional because of how they treat yukkuris (which, to clarify, am glad wasn't happening there- rather, they were based upon his 'flanderization'). Had you ever read anon-kun's comments on the stories? The random nice Yuuka being killed was a bit of the blue, but enjoyable. I remember it being described like in an intense action movie, one of those random characters that end up being killed in the middle of things. Which works, and those movies would be a lot less entertaining without them.
Actually, in honesty, I hadn't read them because I can't access the site. But with the huge influx of anti-abuse lately, I feared that it would have gone the way I described it. Thankfully, it sounds like people have managed to hold onto their hats. I'm just having my over serious sad and angry moment, herp derp de derp.
Tea the thing is that some folks don't see it as a good story style to have such kind of abuser, the flanderized one, many people prefer the abusers to either being without identity and being some sort of personification of violence or have an interesting or averagely aok attitude in general, no matter how sadistic, cruel and wicked the guy can be.
I think the best way to say it would be like this: Middle guys and some abuse fans usually prefer abusive anons to be more like you Tea, meanwhile the anon we were shown by Anon-Kun felt more like AIE, a rabid, biased and flanderized take on abusers, and man that's not fun at all.
So for many think that anon killed the story greatly, since it was mixture of self justifcation about torturing and mutilating all the yukkuris he meets to being rabid and mouth frothing about it. And general, such type of abuser isn't well liked, hell not even in the majority of the abuse fans, dunno if you would like it, but honestly, the story would had fared better with less rabid AIE clone and maybe with another kind of abusive anon.
Personally I don't think that it being a Yukkuri covered in shit makes this any less of a depressing scene. Within the first hour of finding out about Yukkuri at all of course I quickly became jaded to the horror rampant in the genre, but I can still step back and say "yep, that's a bummer".
Yeah, despite the shit, it's still incredibly depressing. Hell, I physically cannot watch this whole series again. I can't. I'm worried what would happen if I did. The ko is trying to get her parent to wake up by doing poo-poo. This is a regular occurence for ko's and parents are supposed to lick-lick them clean. Ergo, the ko believes that by doing poo-poo her daddy can wake up and do clean-clean. I'm pretty sure that she was trying desperately to deny what she already knew, like in a war setting where a guy is talking to his dead mates even though in the back of his mind he knows they're dead.