Unyu said: It also conveniently has Remilias in it.
Doesn't seem that inconvenient to me.
In all probability there are trained Remila in there.
They are taught to fly out and poop elsewhere leaving no mess to regularly clean up in there) and Yukkuri trash requires no pickup because they eat it. An ideal energy and cost-efficient solution to the problem of disposing of what is perceived as living garbage.
Trololo said: Doesn't seem that inconvenient to me.
In all probability there are trained Remila in there.
They are taught to fly out and poop elsewhere leaving no mess to regularly clean up in there) and Yukkuri trash requires no pickup because they eat it. An ideal energy and cost-efficient solution to the problem of disposing of what is perceived as living garbage.
Or you can simply tear off the wings and replace/rotate them weekly. Other than the problem of having to clean out poop, its FAR cheaper than training hundreds/thousands. (Too few "garbage bins" and it simply isn't worth the effort regardless of method. You might as well just squash them/let the wildlife eat them.)
It was a interesting discussion between the mistaken Yukkuri view vs the more accurate Human view, one may argue that yukkuri do face hardships, but if you ignore the death count and focus on the kind of lives they have, yukkuris have it easier than humans out of different ammount of responasbilities which for humans includes responsabilities with their non human peers.
Eh, it goes beyond that. If you really step back, the entire yukkuri species has plot armor. Until a plot device comes along (Anon, Deibu, raper group), yukkuris are practically invulnerable. You don't exactly see many stories where disease, famine or war wipes out entire clans do you?
yukiyuzen said: Eh, it goes beyond that. If you really step back, the entire yukkuri species has plot armor. Until a plot device comes along (Anon, Deibu, raper group), yukkuris are practically invulnerable. You don't exactly see many stories where disease, famine or war wipes out entire clans do you?
I always assumed that the great vulnerability of the yukkuri's body itself was compensated for the magic that kept it moving also providing invulnerability to most illness (mold being a notable exception) and forcing ignorance or lack of interest in Yukkuri upon non-human species (that is to say other animals are made to be unaware or disinterested in yukkuri).
Of course some authors and artists like to write exceptions to this, but for the most part it makes sense and would explain a lot
Trololo said: I always assumed that the great vulnerability of the yukkuri's body itself was compensated for the magic that kept it moving also providing invulnerability to most illness (mold being a notable exception) and forcing ignorance or lack of interest in Yukkuri upon non-human species (that is to say other animals are made to be unaware or disinterested in yukkuri).
Of course some authors and artists like to write exceptions to this, but for the most part it makes sense and would explain a lot
The problem is, the yukkuri's body isn't that weak when it think about it practically. It has 3 significant weaknesses, all of which can be easily covered up.
1. Water: This is a no-brainer which even yukkuris figure out. Stay out of the rain/pool of water.
2. Mold: Too uncommon/rare. You have to be REALLY unhealthy, lazy and/or ignore the bad living conditions to have mold grow on you. (It can happen to humans too!)
3. Weak "skin": Obviously in a fight, you're pretty much screwed if the skin tears/is punctured, but outside of that, stay calm and you're fine. Running around "bleeding out" is obviously going to get you killed, so think of it from the inverse. How often would they SURVIVE if they simply stopped and used their hair/some mud to "patch" up the wound until they get home?
Throw in a hyper-fast birth rate and clan organization (I think its safe to say that the concept of "yukkuri clans" have been adopted into canon) and they're pretty much where humans were about 10,000 years ago. (With some lopsided technological development of course.)
Hmm i would include on that list a 4th one, their ultra limited ammount of skills so limited that it barely let's do take actions for survival, Animals in general have notorious skills that help them survive, yukkuris barely have anything, they are slow, in general weak (unless you are a small bug but if you have enough numbers you can over come a yukkuri), they are unatheltic, they have ver slow reflexes and coordination, basically they are level 1 or worse level 0 in stats.
Outside of pumping babies like rats or cockroaches, yukkuris barely survive with their skills as species, and Dosu's skills don't help much while dealing with creatures capable of evading their precious "Dosu Spark".
yukiyuzen said: The problem is, the yukkuri's body isn't that weak when it think about it practically. It has 3 significant weaknesses, all of which can be easily covered up.
1. Water: This is a no-brainer which even yukkuris figure out. Stay out of the rain/pool of water.
2. Mold: Too uncommon/rare. You have to be REALLY unhealthy, lazy and/or ignore the bad living conditions to have mold grow on you. (It can happen to humans too!)
3. Weak "skin": Obviously in a fight, you're pretty much screwed if the skin tears/is punctured, but outside of that, stay calm and you're fine. Running around "bleeding out" is obviously going to get you killed, so think of it from the inverse. How often would they SURVIVE if they simply stopped and used their hair/some mud to "patch" up the wound until they get home?
Throw in a hyper-fast birth rate and clan organization (I think its safe to say that the concept of "yukkuri clans" have been adopted into canon) and they're pretty much where humans were about 10,000 years ago. (With some lopsided technological development of course.)
Yukkuri aren't very smart.
Rain and other forms of water can be an issue very easily when you're so stupid you build a house where water can flow in downhill. Or if they get too far away hunting before a storm. Or if they get distracted when they go for water (a lot of people depict them as needing SOME water).
While I agree mold is uncommon occurancewise it's basically completely terminal for a wild/stray yukkuri and thus you could think of it as their achilles' heel on the disease front.
the weak skin is more of an issue because wild yukkuri don't have orange juice to patch up their cuts with.
They clearly favor a quantity over quality method of survival and the various stories seem to depict surprisingly typical occurrences, with the only reason for their continued survival being the sheer numbers of kids produced.
JusticeItEasy said: Hmm i would include on that list a 4th one, their ultra limited ammount of skills so limited that it barely let's do take actions for survival, Animals in general have notorious skills that help them survive, yukkuris barely have anything, they are slow, in general weak (unless you are a small bug but if you have enough numbers you can over come a yukkuri), they are unatheltic, they have ver slow reflexes and coordination, basically they are level 1 or worse level 0 in stats.
Outside of pumping babies like rats or cockroaches, yukkuris barely survive with their skills as species, and Dosu's skills don't help much while dealing with creatures capable of evading their precious "Dosu Spark".
I considered their lack of skills, but I decided to exclude it. Yuuka has already "invented" agriculture and thats a huge step above most animals. Nitori, Yukari and Yuyuko are also implied to have a high level of intelligence but are too rare to gauge.
Nonathletic, slow reflexes and low stats are moot points when you consider their near exponential birth rate. If I throw 100 yukkuris at you all at once, you better have Great Cleave or the law of probability says gonna take some damage.
Lack of coordination also doesn't count either since its a catch-22. Dosus CAN coordinate yukkuris, but they DON'T because they're rare (for plot purposes). If Dosus become more common, definitely, they become more organized (see: any story with multiple Dosus).
Just because they organize that doesn't the Dosus would fare better, remember Yukkuri of War, Poweryoga had to make yukkuris somehow learn danmaku and barriers to make them an average threat, since Dosus, even the biggest ones, went down rather easy.
Rain and other forms of water can be an issue very easily when you're so stupid you build a house where water can flow in downhill. Or if they get too far away hunting before a storm. Or if they get distracted when they go for water (a lot of people depict them as needing SOME water).
While I agree mold is uncommon occurancewise it's basically completely terminal for a wild/stray yukkuri and thus you could think of it as their achilles' heel on the disease front.
the weak skin is more of an issue because wild yukkuri don't have orange juice to patch up their cuts with.
They clearly favor a quantity over quality method of survival and the various stories seem to depict surprisingly typical occurrences, with the only reason for their continued survival being the sheer numbers of kids produced.
Trial and error. When X family sees Y family's nest hole in area Z get washed away during a heavy rainstorm, it doesn't take a genius to realize "Nest hole + area Z = Death". All your other points are laughable. Getting to far while hunting? Whats wrong with hiding in a random hole? Get distracted while going for water? Do YOU dump water on your face whenever someone distracts you while you drink?
I agree mold is nigh terminal but its UNCOMMON. An uncommon disease, by nature, is not a concern. Calling it an achilles' heel is like calling the Ebola virus the achilles' heel of humanity. (its not)
Uh, you DO know that orange juice is just a plot device for anon to accelerate healing right? Thats like saying, "humans can't heal from a bump on the head in Star Trek universe without their tricorders and all-purpose injections."
Quantity over quality is normal in nature. Humans still use quantity over quality in most parts of the world. Its only in first-world countries does quality over quantity prevail (and for that, we have a negative population growth. Hurray progress! /sarcasm)
JusticeItEasy said: Just because they organize that doesn't the Dosus would fare better, remember Yukkuri of War, Poweryoga had to make yukkuris somehow learn danmaku and barriers to make them an average threat, since Dosus, even the biggest ones, went down rather easy.
Poweryoga's story also pointed out that danmaku and barriers can annihilate battle tanks and repel small arms fire. Thats not "rather easy". (I won't even bring up Utsuho)
That's the thing. It's poweryoga's story, not exactly accepted by the community as yukkuri canon/fanon (yu-non?). In fact, using one artist/author's views does not really hold water in this debate.
yukiyuzen said: Poweryoga's story also pointed out that danmaku and barriers can annihilate battle tanks and repel small arms fire. Thats not "rather easy". (I won't even bring up Utsuho)
The danmaku does shit to the tanks and other armored vehicles, its only the dosu's and their much stronger abilities that could damage them. Basically, he arranged the yukkuris abilities similar to that of a human army, namely: Normal yukkuri = infantry armed with rifles and the like. Dosu's = Armored vehicles, or maybe AT armed infantry.
JusticeItEasy said: Just because they organize that doesn't the Dosus would fare better, remember Yukkuri of War, Poweryoga had to make yukkuris somehow learn danmaku and barriers to make them an average threat, since Dosus, even the biggest ones, went down rather easy.
I fail to see how the situations in Yukkuri of War have anything to do with the debate that was going on, as it was about survival in the wild, not how much of a threat yukkuri can be.
yukiyuzen said: Trial and error. When X family sees Y family's nest hole in area Z get washed away during a heavy rainstorm, it doesn't take a genius to realize "Nest hole + area Z = Death". All your other points are laughable. Getting to far while hunting? Whats wrong with hiding in a random hole?
You're assuming that yukkuri are intelligent enough on average to make that connection. As has been said, on average, yukkuri are terminally stupid. I don't think they would connect "Nest + Area Z = death". I think they would think "That nest = death = Those yukkuri were uneasy idiots! Sorry for being so smart!" even if they were in a nest that was also in "area Z" and were moments away from suffering the same fate.
Of course, the above only applies to the majority of yukkuri, the slightly more intelligent ones may actually make the necessary connections, but remember that the more intelligent ones probably only make up less then 10% of the yukkuri population.
Maximus the point of mentioning Poweryoga's story was to mention that even with their Dosu Sparks, Dosus aren't exactly as capable as many thing, they are basically Slow Glass Cannons. So even the "organization" boost is debatable, since in general they don't have the abilities Yoga's story showed us.
Maybe the problem is that, some people are ignoring that even in the wild, humans still remain as part of the "dangers" yukkuri face, reason why while Dosus maybe able to deal with smaller animals and if they have numbers the bigger animals may have problems "humans" are still a factor in their survival regardless of were they live, after all, how many stories we had seen of forest clans being wiped out by the factory and such?
Hell, tecnically we are their Number 1 Predator or Bane and Number 1 Protector or Benefactor depending of our mood and allignment. So no matter were they live, we still are a important factor in their lives.
maximusfive said: The danmaku does shit to the tanks and other armored vehicles, its only the dosu's and their much stronger abilities that could damage them. Basically, he arranged the yukkuris abilities similar to that of a human army, namely: Normal yukkuri = infantry armed with rifles and the like. Dosu's = Armored vehicles, or maybe AT armed infantry.
You're assuming that yukkuri are intelligent enough on average to make that connection. As has been said, on average, yukkuri are terminally stupid. I don't think they would connect "Nest + Area Z = death". I think they would think "That nest = death = Those yukkuri were uneasy idiots! Sorry for being so smart!" even if they were in a nest that was also in "area Z" and were moments away from suffering the same fate.
Of course, the above only applies to the majority of yukkuri, the slightly more intelligent ones may actually make the necessary connections, but remember that the more intelligent ones probably only make up less then 10% of the yukkuri population.
ALL attacks in the Touhou games are considered danmaku (with the extreme exceptions of IaMP, SWR and Hisōtensoku), including spell cards. Therefore, Master Spark/Dosu Spark is danmaku. I don't differentiate them since Sakuya's knives and Youmu's sword obviously isn't "danmaku".
Generally speaking, yukkuris ARE intelligent enough to make that connection. As I noted before, "(for plot purposes)". If you stand by the belief that most yukkuris aren't smart enough to realize "doing X will result in death", discussing this with you is a waste of time. By your logic, yukkuris should have driven themselves into extinction from day one because the shitheads killed off the niceheads and then the shitheads got themselves killed by puffing at a raccoon.
Its either that, or, as I said originally, yukkuris have plot armor until a plot device comes along.
I'm starting to think we should take this discussion to the YFG since it's quite interesting and full of potential, but we sure are clogging up the comments here.
Also, people, can we try to, when quoting long comments, just put a "comment" or similar message as a placeholder? comments get extra long when you quote a long comment AND make a long comment yourself.
Maybe, but personally I've already taken that into consideration and written it off. If you split them into a shithead group and a nicehead group, its pretty easy to see how yukkuris "deal" with humans.
Shitheads : Run up to humans and make demands Niceheads : Avoid humans on sight.
Obviously, there will be the curious nicehead yukkuris but those will either be killed on the spot or be driven off. Either way, most will live. (How many people here kill stray animals that randomly walk up to them? Yeah, now apply that to yukkuris.)
I wouldn't put much into "factory" stories either. They're really inconsistent even within their own context and they're almost always given supernatural capabilities.
Humans are a factor, but I wouldn't say we're an "important factor". With the exception of a few extreme stories, you never see stories where humans are actively seeking-and-destroying yukkuris widespread. Sure, you'll get stories where the exterminators clean out yukkuris out of a building or city, but could you ever imagine that being done in Yellowstone National Park? Or the Rocky Mountains? Or the Florida Everglades?
JusticeItEasy said: I'm starting to think we should take this discussion to the YFG since it's quite interesting and full of potential, but we sure are clogging up the comments here.
Knock yourself out. And this is normal from what I've seen in the archives. Only those were pure walls of text since they couldn't use quotes back then.
Considering how the yukkuri stories develop like, chances are those places would get even more active "extermination seasons", i mean, if you think how badly Yukkuris can ruin some enviroments or how, well, "agressive" they are to non yukkuris, chances are that a natural national park or something may be constantly controlling their numbers, and in the worse scenario wipe them out, for the sake of ecological stability and for the rest of the local fauna to not be disturbed by the "new guys" in the neighbourhood.
yukiyuzen said: Eh, it goes beyond that. If you really step back, the entire yukkuri species has plot armor. Until a plot device comes along (Anon, Deibu, raper group), yukkuris are practically invulnerable. You don't exactly see many stories where disease, famine or war wipes out entire clans do you?
Alternatively, the other interpretation would have been that there's more yukkuri about in the world other than the ones you're looking at. Given what happens to yukkuri and how they are on a majority basis, this leads to the conclusion that there's plenty others elsewhere wiping themselves out. It's been suggested a lot of the time that the saving grace of the race is pretty much only their reproductive rate.
By your logic, yukkuris should have driven themselves into extinction from day one because the shitheads killed off the niceheads and then the shitheads got themselves killed by puffing at a raccoon.
It's been suggested a lot of the time that the saving grace of the race is pretty much only their reproductive rate. Indeed, you stated it was practically an 'exponential' birth rate.
If you stand by the belief that most yukkuris aren't smart enough to realize "doing X will result in death"
But that's quite reasonable (also see above). Arguing about it would still be a waste of time, as it's nothing but an argument about individual interpretations.
They're really inconsistent even within their own context and they're almost always given supernatural capabilities.
I wouldn't put much into 'danmaku', their intelligence, their behaviour, what's so bad about Utsuho or anything else as it's really inconsistent w... hmm. That statement also applies to everything you said and based your own judgements off.
could you ever imagine that being done in Yellowstone National Park? Or the Rocky Mountains? Or the Florida Everglades?
Yeah, why not?
How many people here kill stray animals that randomly walk up to them? Yeah, now apply that to yukkuris
You have no idea how invasive species work do you? Humans have NEVER been able to curb, let alone wipe out, an invasive species once introduced into the local ecosystem. Black rats in Europe? Fail. Kudzu in USA? Fail. Bullfrog in Asia? Fail. Cane toad in Australia? Fail. The "factory" in yukkuri stories managing to curb a worldwide invasive species? Sounds like a macguffin to me.
Doesn't matter. Unless you throw in a plot device like an airborne, worldwide, fatal disease that suddenly and only targets yukkuris, pure statistics combined with their exceptional birth rate states that any disease, famine or war would be flat-out negated. If you can come up with a scenario that doesn't rely on plot device level capabilities to curb yukkuri scenarios, I'd love to hear it. Honestly.
I pointed out their "exponential" birth rate as an advantage because trial and error works great when you have a 2-6 kids every pregnancy. Who the fuck cares if 2 or 3 kids die when you have 0-3 other survivors? The dead ones were obvious too dumb to live/uneasy scum.
If you stand by the belief that yukkuris are too stupid to realize that "doing X = death" then this discussion is meaningless. You're basically giving them -1 intelligence for the sake of argument.
Uh, no. Its called staying within context.
Again, you guys are completely missing the point of this discussion. Frankly, if this is far as you guys can go I'm done with this discussion. You're just sounding like trolls now.
Damnit, Google Chrome seems to have eaten the nice long post I tried to make. T-T
I'll summarize it, cause I don't feel like typing it out again: I said average yukkuris are too dumb to figure out "Doing X + Doing Y = death", NOT that they're so stupid that they can't figure out "Doing X = death". The smart ones on the other hand ARE intelligent enough to make that connection. It is marginally harder to figure out the former than it is the latter, after all.
I also added that it was only for seeing said occurrence ONCE. If an average yukkuri sees it happen enough, it may be able to make the connection(If it even survives long enough to see said occurrence enough times), whereas a smart one may be able to get it after seeing it only once or twice.
Except two-step logic has been accepted into yukkuri "canon". Making demands + human = get sweets/get human slave/become pet yukkuri, is one example. Any yukkuri + any "badge" = pet yukkuri, is another. Yukkuris + Dosu = Yukkuris can take it easy, is yet another. Unless you want to argue that the general yukkuri population is dumber than the shitheads in abuse stories yet smart enough to not get killed by humans, this won't go anywhere.
Again, statistics. Lets ignore the smart yukkuris (which I can assume are the minority) for a moment and look at the majority. If 99% of the shitheads/idiots/unlucky ones die before figuring out "humans = death", that means 1% figure it out.
If we start arguing that 1% of the top most lucky/intelligent yukkuris can't figure out "humans = death", you're basically dumbing them down to the point that they have no grasp of the most basic survival instinct: "Avoid or die". That point, they're automatically extinct because they're too stupid to avoid water, fall in, melt and die.
Dangit, you made me delete a nice long post. Why? Because I realized you pulled me into a trap that I try to avoid. (Most likely unintentionally done on your part.)
The Trap? Trying to argue specific 'values' or 'quantities' when it comes to yukkuri.
So, instead I'll revamp my argument to this:
When an average yukkuri is presented with something that requires a decision, even if its a subconscious decision like "How will I interpret this situation?", they will around 75% of the time make a stupid decision. (This is assuming that it has no previous experience with said situation, and is the first time that yukkuri has encountered it. Also, 'stupid' does not always mean fatal.)
Before someone argues against that, let me make a clarification. They will chose the stupid choice, so long as it is not a choice that will obviously kill them, Obvious meaning that even the yukkuri can tell it will kill them, or if its a choice that the yukkuris survival instincts says is a bad idea.
(In my yukkuri-verse, 'survival instinct' is a seperate value from intelligence, thus a stupid yukkuri with high survival instincts may be able to survive where an averagely intelligent yukkuri with low survival instincts wouldn't.)
Just as a note, I'm assuming that the possible choices are roughly as follows: An Intelligent choice A neutral choice (Neither intelligent or stupid) A stupid choice An extremely stupid choice(aka obviously fatal, even to an average yukkuri. Only yukkuri that are stupid even by yukkuri standards would chose this, ie shitheads/the yukkuri in the too_dumb_to_live tag.)
Interesting read, but I kind of think the anon was full of crap towards the end. The yukkuri were indeed idiots to think humans don't work hard, since most of them do. However, stray city yukkuri hardly have an enviable life, so trying to downplay their harsh existence is quite silly.
I think the point wasn't about them having an enviable existence, but a more simple one that they sadly over dramatize or over glorify trying to make the other yu's as "lesser beings", not necessarily better, but basically, in theory, they have to do LESS to fulfil their needs, humans are complex creatures that have more needs, yukkuri's don't, so no matter how much hardships a yukkuri faces to fulfil their needs, it will never be as much as the hardships a human may face to fulfill their own. Be it a homeless guy and a stray yu, or be it an average worker and an average wild yu, the human will be the one with the greater burden and the greater work.
In a sort of way there is some balance in the comparison of yu's and humans, humans have way more advantages, but also have waaaaaaaaaaay more goals to fulfill, yukkuris may have waaaaaaaay less advantages, but have way less goals to fullfill. A Human must raise 100 flags, a Yu only 10.
I'm sorry... I'm sorry... I'm sorry... I'm sorry...It's been a while since I ate do~☆Wanched... to chake ich eajy... more...Mwobbiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie!I'm sorry... Little one...U-☆
Delicious do~Gyaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Sdooooooooooooooop!*Rip* *Tear*Yugyaaaaaaaaa! Ich huuuuuuurchs! Don'ch eat Weimu's faaaaaaaashe!Forgive... the Reimu that gave birth to you... little one...
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