Dunno Man, she had reached broken bird status, it isn't that hilarious when you think that she had reached shithead delusional level without being necessarily a shithead, only a broken yukkuri product of it's own mistaken assumptions and their consequences.
I may be sick and of all the same stupid abuse crap and of poor rationalizations people on this site tend to make , but that doesn't mean I lack the sufficiently dark humor to laugh out loud at something like this >:-)
If you are sick, maybe it's time to leave? nobody is forcing you to check OYP.
We don't need you becoming full anti-abuse, we already had enough shit from Rabid Anti-Abusers and Rabid Abusers, like for you to suddenly evolve into one as well out of "being sick"
And it's not poor rationalization when it fits the world that is discussed and the fanon.
Maybe it is. I'm not really anti-abuse , really. I've got nothing against sadism , heck , I enjoy many of the worst abuse-artists like Kiraitaa. It's just getting boring to see the same crap over and over again ; altough I have to admit that this series had me pleasantly surprised - I had not yet read the entire piece when we discussed this thing earlier. I'm just fed up with these people here who talk like there is something wrong with you when you feel some empathy with yukkuri and their justifications for it. Now that I'm putting it this way ... I guess what I'm really tired off are the Rabid Abusers you mentioned , not the regular crowd ....
Well you have to consider the way you put your "sympathy" you basically called on the anon and claimed he had no right to do what he did. When this is one of those stories that, regardless of it's flaws and bad aspects, the anon was averagely nice and had darn good reasons to be mean to the yukkuri.
You have to understand one simple fact, yukkuris are neither animal or people, they are monster fauna.
So they work under different rules, we may make paralels and all, but their treatment will always be way different from other creatures, all based on their characteristics.
You may not like it, but the Anon had all the rights in the world to be angry with his pet Marisa, she betrayed his trust, even before being a gold badge yukkuri, and such a pet isn't worth to take care of, he even was quite lenient, other anons would plainly kill them or torture them to death, he just smacked them a bit, nearly killed 1 koyukkuri, but then had a change of heart and saved it, and kicked them out to live on their own.
And as i mentioned before, if she was raped, that would be another story, Anon would had probably helped her out, maybe do an abortion out of not being able to take care of kids, or willing to, and only punish the Stray, but in this scenario Marisa willingly paired up with a Stray, and it lead to ruining the relationship she had with her owner.
If anything, you may have a better case of unnecessary assholery or anything from that "ninja anon" guy that forced Marisa into the sadistic choice and ended up burning, indirectly both her hat and her little one's.
Yet the flashback showed how Anon was caring and even worked his ass out to help marisa in her training and to get the money for her stuff and her badge.
Like the original title says, it was a series of "Unfortunate Events" all triggered by Marisa's mistaken assumptions and not caring enough about her owner's opinion, something which would had saved he from many unnecessary problems, being the pet and having an advantage many average pets like, being able to speak the language of her owner.
Yukkuris have no rights. They had no right to complain over anything. This Marisa was anon's property. Property don't bark back at its owner. Only mistake anon did was that he took such a retarded property in the first place. Burn its feet first or something... but then again the story wouldn't exist. again, author makes his rules. If Marisa would have obeyed anon's orders then we would have gotten another family friendly boring story.
Little request JIE, not to offend: can you tone it down sometimes, please? Everytime someone writes something that you disagree with - even for a slight point - we have to face a million of words and posts, all written by you. Personally I find pathernalistic tone quite annoying, after a while. Especially since I believe that people are intelligent and don't need you to explain what they are seeing. "Then simply don't read them", you could say, but in that case I could tell you the same everytime someone wants to write his funny comment without getting back a kg of words that play on semantics and periphrasis.
Well considering that many of the people i answer with long comments are people that "don't" write a "funny comment" but an opinion or interpretation that is usually for discussion. . .
There is a huge difference between a "Funny Comment" and what FSB was writing which was his interpretation of the whole story. You answer funny comments with funny comments, you answer interpretations with interpretations.
Yep, I was tricked by a sort of 'false friend': I wasn't referring to political systems <_<
In my country has basically the same meaning and, as extension, "indulgent attitude in a relationship between a 'higher person' and his subordinates" (indulgent not in the good meaning, it's basically someone who acts like a good Daddy while in fact he is tirannical in his opinions and loathes his interlocutor).
"You have to understand", "you are reading everything wrong" and so on and then wordswordswords give me this kind of feeling. Nothing special, that's all.
Well i like to point out what i agree or what i don't, then see what kind of answer i get and reply back, kinda a vicious cycle i must admit.
The problem i see, that many times bothers me way too much, is when people's interpretations seem to seek to debunk the fanon we have, "because they don't like it" instead of maybe having a better idea for a concept about yukkuris.
Fanon is not absolute, but neither should be bypassed just to call everything wrong, specially because of claims that "in real world that wouldn't work". Yukkuris aren't real to begin with, neither animal or people, just monster fauna, so all the real standars shouldn't be expected, their treatment is unique, like any monster fauna's treatment, and it usually works in their stories.
@FSB and JIE The problem that you two seem to be having is that you are both looking at yukkuri's with different sets of values.
FSB is looking at yukkuri with a somewhat 'real world' set of values.
JIE is looking at yukkuri with a bit of a 'fannon world' set of values. Note that I said "a BIT of a 'fannon world' set of values", JIE has his own set of values there that may or may not be close to what I describe down below. What I write is more of a 'base' on what most fannon seems to be.
Those two sets of values will almost ALWAYS led to conflicts. Why? Because of the difference in how yukkuri's would be classified.
In the Real world, if yukkuris existed, they would be classified as 'animals', why? because ANY LIVING THING that has, and I quote, 'The capacity for Sponteneous movement, and Rapid motor response to stimulation' is classed as an animal. So, therefore, a yukkuri is definitely an 'animal'.
Now, because a yukkuri fits the definition of animal, we can expect it to, at the very LEAST, receive the same basic 'rights' as other animals. Realistically, yukkuri would probably receive MORE 'rights' then animals, as yukkuris are actually capable of communicating with humans, creating the illusion that they are closer to 'sentience' then they really are.
This part is pointed @Hakkaido With 'real world' values, while 'pets' may indeed be considered property, they still have SOME universal rights. After all, if someone reports you beating the shit out of your pet dog, you can expect to be slapped with a 'Cruelty to Animals' charge.
So, all of the above boils down to the fact that, when applying 'Real world' values to this story, the Anon is certainly acting stupid/trollish. You wouldn't abandon a pet cat or dog just because it mated with one you don't care for, so why would you abandon a pet yukkuri for doing the same? If you don't like the 'mate', just kick the 'mate' out and punish/teach the pet not to do that again.
Remember, ALL of the above is how someone who is using 'real world' values will probably look at this story.
Now, for when someone looks at this story using the 'fannon' values. In fannon, yukkuri are neither animal nor human, so they receive the rights of NEITHER.
When a yukkuri is a pet, it is considered as ONLY PROPERTY, there is NO restrictions on what you do with your 'property' so long as it doesn't affect others.
When a Yukkuri is a wild or a stray, it is considered as 'Vermin', meaning you can kill it freely. But unlike the real world, this form of the 'Vermin' classification gives total free reign to do ANYTHING to them, including torture.
In fannon values, it all boils down to one thing, Yukkuris have NO rights, not even the right to live. Despite their 'true' state as something in between human and animal, they are instead considered as even LESS then animal.
You CANNOT debate the above, there is simply FAR too many cases of anons doing things to yukkuri that would land them in prison in the real world, and NOT A SINGLE ONE of those Anons receives ANY punishment from the law.
So, those are the two differing sets of values that people usually seem to fall under, excluding the rabid abusers who want to torture/kill all yukkuri. As long as 'Real world' value people continue to point out how wrong the actions of Anons are, the 'fannon world' values people are going to feel the need to argue in defense of the anon(as long as the anon isn't just trolling yukkuris).
I personally agree with FSB, this Anon went out of line by abandoning the Marisa, but I recognize that this anon is operating under the 'fannon world' set of values, and so has not done anything 'wrong' in context.
There are actually a great deal of stories and images where I think the Anon is a MASSIVE asshole, and probably deserves to meet the same fate as the yukkuris he tortures, but I also realize that, again, in the world the Anon 'exists' in, he isn't doing anything 'wrong' and is therefore free of deserving punishment. So I keep my mouth SHUT, and avoid commenting on the anons assholeish-ness. The reason I read/look at those images/stories is because of my 'morbid curiosity', or maybe just a deeply repressed sadistic side. In the end, it just boils down to me liking abuse and FF both. (on that note, the anon in this story is NOT one of the ones I would call 'asshole'. He's only 'Jerk' level and deserves maybe a swat upside the head at most. XP)
tl;dr If yukkuri existed in the 'real world' they would have the same rights as animals, and the anon in this story wrong to abandon the Marisa. But since yukkuri DON'T exist in the 'real world', they have NO rights. So anything goes.
OH MY GOD KEN FOLLET ON OYP?!? Offend? With such a beast? Impossible, I'm too scared to feel anything else!!! You win the transcription of all the Pokemon's seasons dialogues as a prize!
Btw >>So I keep my mouth SHUT, and avoid commenting on the anons assholeish-ness is not only welcomed, but thirded with a >>I'd avoid talking about Misters behaviour at all unless there's something funny, because everytime it comes back to the usual arguments.
You win the transcription of all the Pokemon's seasons dialogues as a prize!
Oh you magnificent bastard. I'll get you for that one day! count on it! XP (I hate the pokemon anime, I like the games though, and I haven't read the manga so I can't judge that.)
Well your essay takes it easy so i approve of it Maximusfive.
And yeah i think that's the whole thing, i honestly wouldn't use real world standars though, since, well, it's impossible for a yukkuri to exist in the real world for many obvious reasons. As much i rather adapt morals to that world standars.
Maybe he didn't want to be "that" cruel and would settle by her not returning to the house ver again.
After all we are talking of the same guy that would save the life of the very koyukkuri he kicked and would nurse it and adopt it, when he could had just do like any anon and stomp it or worse.
>>So, therefore, a yukkuri is definitely an 'animal'...we can expect it to, at the very LEAST, receive the same basic 'rights' as other animals...
Nope. But that's been done to death as well, so I'll try not to indluge any more. The "real world rights" crap is also prime anti-abuse material. Trying to debate or state how they'd get treated if they real is also rather useless (but still a great bomb waiting to explode) seeing as they're not, and simply becomes a way to state underlying anti-abuse/abuse feelings.
@tea Yes, I know. Yukkuris are not real, and will almost certainly never be real.
Now, the reason many people will bring in the 'real world' values bit is due to a variety of reasons. When an artist/author makes a yukkuri story, they have 'created' a 'world' in which yukkuris exist. Now, the vast majority of those stories only show a small and limited portion of that 'world' for a short time, as such, we the readers are left to fill in the rest of that world with our imagination. Even the greatest of imaginations will find a tendency to 'fill in the blanks' with things that are BASED on the real world, as that is the only 'world' we can truly know and experience. So, no matter how wild and fantastical you make the 'world', fragments of the real world will still find their way in there.
THAT is why many of us will, at times, try and apply real world values to the yukkuri 'world'. We simply aren't shown enough of the artists/authors 'world' to see what 'values' the people of that world have, so we are left with that blank to fill in.
Now, I think you might be assuming that I'm giving more 'rights' to animals/yukkuri, then I really am. I could be wrong on that though.
The way I see it, there's only one 'true' 'right' that animals, and indeed ALL life, has. Namely: The right to not suffer a slow and painful death for the sake of another's 'amusment', or because of that 'others' neglect. Put simply, there is NO possible justification for torturing an animal, or neglecting it to the point of its death. If you can't care for the animal, give it to someone who can! Sadly, there ARE possible justifications for torturing sentient lifeforms, so I can't make the same argument for us humans. Doesn't make it any less MORALLY wrong though.
If you try and apply other 'rights' to animals, or even humans, you'll end up getting my survivalist rant on what the true form of our 'rights' really is.
Hmm Maximusfive, had you ever considered that maybe the conglomeration of stories of the yukkuri world give hints of how a yukkuri world would be like?
Not like i'll side with Tea or anything, but i usually take many of the "how the yukkuri world works like?" ideas based on the general view of the works.
Plus, i rather not consider yukkuris animals, i prefer the term monster fauna, why? because of the many traits yukkuri have, they can't be catalogued neither as people or animal, they are a more distinctive race that has different traits which lead to a rather unique treatment towards them. In fact while i facepalm at the majority's idioticy or hate the shitheads, i think that cataloging them as animals would be insultive and would overlook their close to sapience capacities, after all, it's not the same how people see a cat, than how people see a magic familiar talking cat, they usually get different treatment out of the different level of sapience.
wow max5, I think you wrapped up yukkuris in one nice essay. If you ask around here, I think the collective agreement is that Yukkuris are walking food. Thus, they receive the same rights as food...
"Put simply, there is NO possible justification for torturing an animal, or neglecting it to the point of its death. If you can't care for the animal, give it to someone who can! Sadly, there ARE possible justifications for torturing sentient lifeforms, so I can't make the same argument for us humans. Doesn't make it any less MORALLY wrong though."
Careful, that could turn pretty explosive. Not that I disagree, of course. And animals, yes: yukkuris aren't animals. When it comes up, the conclusion is: "they're monster fauna" or they're walking food, as mentioned. Not animals. With the blank filling too, you can see that they're not perceived or treated as animals (and treating them as if they would be fails because they are pretty much radically different to animals- i.e. they ain't). Obviously, for me that weights to the conclusion that they wouldn't be treated as animals but it's going to be very subjective. Looking at a yukkuri, I'd say it's pretty different and not similar to a cat, a dog, a horse, a lizard, or pretty much anything classed as an "animal". Yukkuris aren't animals, at least as we know them-and if you try to make them, then "animals" no longer means the same thing as you meant all along and is invalid. There's also the applying of real world thought to them as if they were real, but I'd say it's more likely that if they were real it'd shake up radically how things such as 'animal' would be thought of and defined (and as said there's quite a difference between yukkuris and things we know as animals, so that still wouldn't really make them the same). In fact, whether they are even a "living thing" is quite debatable. Or if the trouble stems from the fact that 'real world' thinking treats them as animals and it's not some other issue- such as the fact that they may be sentient and people perceive it's wrong to do it to a sentient creature, issues of morality and simple 'I wouldn't like this done to me'. I think that it's more the perceived sentient status (again very debatable) that's more likely trouble as opposed to 'animal'. The whole scope of this argument is ridiculously large it probably belongs in a thesis. Or five (along with the survivalism, because we really don't need even more clutter after this).
Well even in the yukkuri fiction worlds, abandoning a pet yukkuri is not a good thing to do to your neighborhood. It places strain on the community. Now you have more begging, good pets being killed, stealing, and/or home invasions because they lack the necessary survival skills. I'm sure he expected Marisa to die early on and not hold on that long. However, he was the last one to own Marisa, and thus she was his responsibility to the bitter end. The neighborly thing to do real world or fictional would be to put Marisa AND the Reimu and kos down.
Homo Sapiens(Humans) are members of the Kingdom Animalia(Animal). Therefore, humans are animals. There ONLY true difference between humans and the other members of the Animal kingdom, is our sentience.
Now, in the interest of not making this comment page any longer, I'm moving the rest of my argument to the yukkuri fanfic group, in the 'yet another yukkuri biology thread' discussion.
You know, all this is really based on opinion. That is your opinion, JIE has his own opinion, heck, veryone has their own opinion(Mine is that Yukkuris are just walking breakfast). You can't change other peoples opinion, and neither can anyone change yours. So please end this? I think its been going on for a bit too long now... :(
Wait isn't "sapience" what makes humans be so unique of average animals?
Sentience is a very troublesome word, depending of the work it may mean sapience as well, but also can be just the ability to "experience non emotional feelings" like pain, pleasure, suffering, etc.
Usually a "human like" beign is labelled as Sentient and Sapient, which supposedly describes humans as well. Basically someone that can both have advanced thoughts and at the same time "feel", which also makes "100% logical and non emotional robot races to be degraded from the "Sentience" altar."
Goddamit i hate how the random use in fiction and real life of those 2 words makes me so confused.
Er, I hadn't looked into the difference between those two words before. You're right, I should have used Sapience rather then Sentience. So, while I said Sentience, I MEANT Sapience. XP
@hanky That would lead to a philosophical discussion on what the definition of being 'alive' is.
And furthermore, we simply don't know enough about the universe to truly say what forms 'life' may take. Hell, for all we know, yukkuris(or something like them) may actually exist in the far flung reaches of the universe. And that point cant be argued, because not even science can say, with 100% certainty, that it is impossible for a yukkuri-like lifeform to have occurred somewhere in the universe.
Granted, there's probably a 99.99999% chance that it IS impossible for a yukkuri-like lifeform to exist, but that still means there's an element of doubt, and so we cannot be absolutely certain about it(yet).
But like I recently said in the fanfic group thread, whether they're 'alive' or not doesn't really seem to affect how they're treated. So you could call it a moot point.
You have to consider that, taking aside the abusers who don't discriminate, the general treatment by the average joes about yukkuris is to smack them and kill them out of their absolutist stubborness combined by arrogance, agressiveness, ignorance and a delusional way to see the world.
Basically alive or not, a shit yukkuri won't change it's mind and keep on screwing up the world, attacking others, etc. and if it could, it would probably abuse you, rape you, enslave you, etc. We have good yukkuris, but let's remember who the main bulk of humanity have to deal with everyday, shitheads, scums or scum siding neutrals. Good yukkuris either are too fearful and hide, are high quality pets or plainly aren't around since their low numbers make them not be as predominant in various sectors as their wicked fellows.
So alive or not, it doesn't matter much, i do consider them alive, but i consider that the shitheads and scums, are like the xenomorphs, a life form that really shouldn't exist, the good yukkuris on the other hand deserve to exist and the neutrals, they live in an ambigous situation ouf of their neutrality and capacity to change definitely for good or worse.
That line is your opinion, correct? Not a 'statement of fact', right? Cause if you meant it as a 'statement of fact', well, we're gonna have another debate getting started. -_-
*phew* I figured it was your opinion, but the sentence structure kind of made me a little worried you may have meant it as 'fact'.
I don't think I can put what I was implying into words, but it certainly wasn't that shitheads don't need to be wiped out.
I wouldn't say they 'deserve' to be wiped out though, because who are we humans to judge if another species actually 'deserves' to be wiped out?
On the other hand, they 'need' to be wiped out because they are surprisingly harmful to the environment, which is in turn harmful to humanity. So, we are morally 'correct' in moving to 'protect' ourselves from that 'harm', because we have the right to TRY to defend ourselves from harm.
In short, I don't think ANY lifeform actually 'deserves' to go extinct. However, should they prove harmful to the 'greater good' then they may 'need' to be rendered extinct. It doesn't change the fact that Genocide is, in my opinion, an 'evil' act, regardless of circumstances. But there may be times that its a necessary 'evil'.
Oh, I suppose that I should add that Genocide in the name of preserving your species would be, in my mind, a 'neutral' act. The 'evil' of committing genocide is 'canceled out' by the 'good' of preserving your species.
Hmm you know that Life Form can be used in a non racial general sense, right? Kinda like when you call inviduals or small groups life forms. It doesn't needs to refer to a species as whole.
This time it was focused on shitheads and scum yukkuris that are a wicked subgroup of yukkuris, and the example of the xenomorph was because of a blalantly obvious always chaotic evil race.
Maybe a better example would be to compare shitheads and scum yukkuris to the bandits and raiders of Hokuto no Ken, always chaotic evil and with no chance of reemdeption or even the guilt, instead, they have pleasure with all their slaughters and rape, pretty much like a shithead or scum yukkuri, yet, in the end we consider that it would make the world a favor to wipe them out, and we cheer each time kenshiro kill their asses using hokuto shinken and making them die painfully.
@JIE I know that. I was essential implying that 'shithead/scum' yukkuri as a whole don't really 'deserve' to be wiped out, despite being chaotic evil. They certainly 'need' to be wiped out though.
my argument against 'deserving' to be wiped out, is only really that I don't think humans have the 'authority/right' to 'judge' if members of another species 'deserve' death. Its mainly because we are, in all likelihood, unable to perceive the world, and 'right' and 'wrong', the same way as that other species.
On the other hand, with the bandits from HnK you mentioned, we DO have the right to 'judge' them, due to the fact that both us and them are from the same species.
Now, if some of the good yukkuri came up to us and said that the 'shitheads' really do 'deserve' to be wiped out, THEN I would agree on them 'deserving' that fate. As that would confirm that the 'shitheads' have passed the 'moral event horizon' even by the standards yukkuri 'judge' themselves by. Sadly, the problem with that, is that the 'good' yukkuri simply seem to be TOO nice to start asking for such a thing.
And I'm tentatively done now. XP
BTW Harouki, check your email. Poweryoga too, if he sees this.
Let's just stop it with this painful wall of text. Regardless of whatever they are, what things 'deserve' or have as 'rights', really means nothing. To sum up: "You know, all this is really based on opinion." Think of them as walking food, or really as animals if you want to, you don't need to go into a page filler to show the fact. There's no need to convince or change anyone's mind, and start confusing people and wasting space. It seems this issue of "rights" hits a nail for you, I can appreciate it, but goddamnit please have some control.