moi86 said: wtf, cruel bitch, how can she ignore a cute meiling criying
No, walking by is the default thing to do- she's neutral. And why would you help something loud and annoying like that? Meilings are one of the Mary Sues of the yukkuri world, receiving way too much undeserved love and attention.
>They rarely are shitheads and are averagely nice and good pets, which in general wins everybody that isn't a 100% yukkuri hater.
They are so great because the artists make them that way, so when you say "they" you are skipping over the source of the problem, which is that the creator of the work is creating an obvious and banal character to garner love and attention based on his/her own biases. That's why most rarer characters get so much love( Yuuka, Meiling, Utsuho, etc) while the prominent characters are trashed( Reimu, Marisa, Alice).
JusticeItEasy said: Seriously SUN, i thought of all the people here, you weren't part of the kind of fellow that missues the words "Mary Sue", it seem you are part of the mistaken souls that use it for stuff they don't like, so sad and i'm quite dissapointed.
I'm part of the poor souls that can read and understand English well, so that's why I feel confident calling characters Mary Sues. The Wikipedia definition for a Mary Sue is:
"A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet"."
So, overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms? Check. Lacking noteworthy flaws? Check. Wish-fulfillment? Check. Favored too highly? Check. Any questions?
Red_Ruin said: It seems to me that any yukkuri that are popular automatically become Mary-Sues...
They are popular because they are Mary Sues, not the other way around. Ask yourself, if these rarer yukkuris acted just like the reimus and marisas would they be as loved as they are? No. They are drawn as saints.
SUN said: They are popular because they are Mary Sues, not the other way around. Ask yourself, if these rarer yukkuris acted just like the reimus and marisas would they be as loved as they are? No. They are drawn as saints.
So? If people want to draw them as saints, let them. If they want to draw them as shitheads, let them. I see no reason not to do either.
Red_Ruin said: So? If people want to draw them as saints, let them. If they want to draw them as shitheads, let them. I see no reason not to do either.
You know that you mention that Red Ruin, i always found it funny that yukkuris seems to be represented like that, even between the average types you would find saints and shitheads.
Though truth be told i have this theory that, their "saint or shithead" aspect is a product of their simplistic nature, basically they just can't be gray or remain gray for long, at some point they go "white or black" using Shikieiki's labels, All this because yukkuris aren't complex creatures but simple creatures, even the most intelligent ones. Basically like a Cute Critter Cartoon, just with a looooooooooooooooooooot of deconstruct on it.
JusticeItEasy said: Yeah, why did you forgot the flaws and hardships of the meilings?
...
So again how a character with such flaws and hardships is a mary sue? I don't see it.
Once again, you're focusing too much on the characters and ignoring the main factor here, which are the artists and authors. They are responsible for the Sues; the reason we can point out Sues is because the artist has failed to make a character and has instead made a hollow self-insertion. It destroys suspension of disbelief and reminds you that this is just a bad fanfic instead of a gripping and engaging narrative.
Another mistake you're making is looking at this too simplistically. Flaws and hardships? One doesn't need to be free of flaws and hardships to be a Sue. A Sue is comprised of many parts and one of those parts is that he or she is favored too highly by the author and and hogs all the attention away from the plot. If a character has many "flaws" but all of those "flaws" make her more cute and appealing to the audience, too "moe", then that constitutes a Sue. An example is a "moe" character that has many flaws but they all end up making her dominate the character lineup, thus producing a Sue.
JusticeItEasy said: You shouldn't be asking if they would be as liked if there were more shithead variants of them, because, ironically, the archetypical group have spawned many sympathetic and likeable versions of Marisas, Reimus, Patchoulis and Alices that many of use love as much as a rare type. Instead of that you should be asking what kind of role they are being made into and if they fit. And I had always seen Meilings and Yuukas fitting a role that makes their story work properly. Can't speak for other rare types, Okuus are weird and the rest barely show up.
You're missing the point. Yes, the reimu and marisa yukkuri characters have more balance and therefore are not Sues. The other rarer types are not balanced and always win. Here is a good example:
You wanna' talk to me about roles? Why does utsuhokurri have the role of bringing justice and annihilating other yukkuris effortlessly when that role is completely different from official game canon, where Reimu and Marisa are the good guys and defeat the antagonists? How can you use the "roles" argument when roles have lost so much of there relevance, especially in regard to Sues? They're Sues because they have far overstepped their roles and dominate the set!
Red Ruin said: So? If people want to draw them as saints, let them. If they want to draw them as shitheads, let them. I see no reason not to do either.
So, what are you doing here again? I was point out that the character is a Sue and you're repeating the standard ideological lines here... are you clued into the argument or are you repeating a generic line that doesn't fit in at all? Saints aren't automatically Sues and neither are shitheads.
It's not about letting or not letting- it's about making the best use of time and in the context of yukkuri stories, crafting original, interesting narratives and not the same tired cliches.
You know what? I think this is going no where, like always meh, so i'll erase my comments for the sake of the community since this single picture is getting clusterfucked.
I still think you are darn mistaken SUN and that regardless what you say, you are missing completely point of what really matters in a story and when the author's missdoing or favoring DO matter, which is beyond balance of character and more about balance of storyline.
You know, I actually do agree with SUN here. To add though, the way I've always thought it is that shitheaded type yukkuri tend to be the most numerous among the 'common types', so personally I don't see a reason why (if you were thinking inside a yukkuri-verse and my own interpretation) the same wouldn't apply across the board, because it does for the ones that have material to back it up. But artists simply just don't draw the rarer (meaning less available material, particularly of bad behaviour and are also more popular) yukkuri as much, and if they were as popular I'm sure the balance would begin to tip. (Mind, I'm not talking about or have a problem with what artists draw- I may or may not like it, but I won't complain- but rather how they're perceived).